Liquid Soap Formulating & Lye Excess Amount

[egirlxx7]

Hi Everyone,

I have a question about liquid soap formulating

I know that liquid soaps are made with a lye excess.
For a long while (don't laugh) I was confused on how to formulate this into soapcalc and SBM

In going over the Failor book I took one of her formulas I have used and tried to see how she came up with her figures as before I was getting totally different numbers than what she had.

Example from her book I used the: 23 oz CO, 25 oz Soft oil of choice, 12 oz KOH, 36 oz Water


Which after entering the oil amounts on soapcalc, I entered -11 in superfat, 3:1 in water to lye ratio, which gave me 35.624 oz of Water and 11.875 for KOH, which rounded up, gives the same values in Failors recipe.

In trying to run this through before I did not enter the negative
Going forward, when formulating, should I always be using the -11 and 3:1

My guess is that since she is not specifying which soft oil to use, she is using a large lye excess to cover any oil that is chosen

What is the normal lye excess or should I stick to -11 when formulating??

If I would like to formulate a liquid soap using 2 or 3 oils, where it says soft oil of choice, my thoughts suggest to just select my desired oils for example only 11oz OO, and 14oz Soybean oil (to equal 25oz) and just run through the lye calculator

Just want to know if this is how the lye excess is normally calculated with others who make liquid soaps

Thanks
EGirl

 

[lsg]

Many people do not superfat their liquid soap. I do. Have you tried making liquid soap using glycerin instead of water? I love this recipe and I believe it does use a lye discount. Here is the link, you will need to click on the words "Show More" to see the two recipes.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6brP--yQpU"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6brP--yQpU[/ame]

 

[Hazel]

Why would we laugh? I know how you feel because I had problems entering LS info on soapcalc, too.

KOH isn't made up of all potassium hydroxide. It can have 10% to 11% water bound up into it because of its molecular structure. There can also be approximately 1% impurities. This is one of the reasons why a large excess is recommended so there will be enough potassium hydroxide for saponification. It is to ensure that all the oils are saponified. The importance of this is because oil and water combined is a breeding ground for bacteria. My understanding of the process is full saponification and the high alkalinity prevents bacterial growth (hopefully) so you don't have to use a preservative. I personally like a little oil in LS so I do use a preservative. I've also read that too much unsaponified oil can cause cloudiness and the soap can also separate.

BTW, I agree with lsg. The glycerin LS method makes a really nice soap and it's easy to do. Just make sure you use a stainless steel spoon to stir the glycerin and lye. It gets really hot and can possibly melt a plastic spoon. I don't know about silicone utensils. They might be able to withstand the heat.

 

[DragonQueenHHP]

I use the Summer Bee Advance Calculator for my LS love it !
I do not superfat mine at all

 

[egirlxx7]

Thanks everyone

I got anxious and tried a test batch

9oz OO
5oz CO
1oz Jojoba
1oz castor
3.54 oc KOH and 10.61oz water

I used the basic calculator on SBM, the advanced seem to have me spinning a bit

I do like however to know the specifics of the soap i am creating, ie, conditioning, hardness, etc. I didn't see that on SBM calculator,

is there a general rule for how much co to use in liquid soaps?
I poured all oils into one bowl so i had to adjust this recipe, i was aiming for 8oz OO and 6oz of CO (oops)

The paste is not as solid as the others that I have made, I am wondering if there is too much soft oil?

 

[Lindy]

I do a couple of different things when I make liquid soap. First I use a crock pot and I triple the amount of water called for as I don't feel I need to have a paste before diluting. So I dilute as I go. I also superfat @ 5%, I do not want to be adding borax or anything else like that. I guess I have a bad attitude but I got into making soap so I can have products that are conditioning.

Now when you dilute if you leave it too soap heavy then it separates out which is why liquid soap is usually so thin. The other thing the books are always stressing is clear soap (hence low to no SF) but I like a creamy, pearl type look. So here are the other 2 things I do. I love a thick liquid soap so I add crothix as well as a pearlizer ( EZ Pearl - Glycol Distearate). You can also use Xanthan Gum for thickening or Carbopol Ultrez 20 Gelling Agent to create a gel style liquid soap.

So there you have it - the rebel acting out again

 

[DragonQueenHHP]

The paste is not as solid as the others that I have made, I am wondering if there is too much soft oil?

it does not have to be solid as long as it is cooked and passed all the test it is good and yes I would say the oils effect the paste

 

[IrishLass]

I'm fairly new to liquid soapmaking. Hazel the soap temptress kept taunting me to try it until I finally gave in over the summer. I started out with the glycerin method that lsg mentioned. The Dish forum has a famously loooooong thread on the glycerin method, and I read the entire thing before embarking on my LS adventure. I fell in love with it on my first try and it's the only LS method I've used to date (not including cream soap, but that's a different kind of soap with a different kind of story. Hazel the soap temptress taunted me into making some of that, too. )

I use the SBM advanced calculator and superfat my LS at 3% because of all I read on that Dish thread- especially 3bees~1flower's posts. The SBM advanced calculator takes into account KOH impurity and is probably the best one out there to use for liquid soap because of that.

My liquid soap using the glycerin method superfatted at 3% on the SBM adavanced calculator comes out as clear as a bell, just as long as I don't use any butters in my formula. If I use butters it comes out cloudy, but I learned a wonderful trick from 3bees~1flower to melt down 2% stearic acid with the paste when diluting and it will transform the dull, transluscent/cloudy LS made with butters into to a beautifully opaque pearly LS. I did that to my cocoa butter/shea formula and I must say that I really love it. It's so invitingly thick, rich, and beautifully pearly/creamy looking that when I go to wash my hands, I can't seem to help myself and I end up choosing it over my clear LS.

I guess that makes me an LS rebel like Lindy.

is there a general rule for how much co to use in liquid soaps?

From all I've read from those who make LS the tradtional way, adding too much over 10% coconut oil makes it very difficult if not impossible to end up with a nicely thick LS. But in comparison, if you use the glycerin method, you can use as much CO as you want and still get a thick LS. I made a 100% CO liquid soap using the glycerin method and although it took some fussing trying to get my preferred dilution rate down to my satisfaction, I finally did it. It took 5 parts paste to one part water to get it to where it is as thick as my Dawn liquid dish soap. It's a couple of months old now and no separation at all. Also, my cocoa butter/shea formula has 35% CO in it and I have no trouble diluting it so that it's nice and thick, too- even before I add stearic acid to it. No separation there either (it's also a few months old).


IrishLass

 

[DragonQueenHHP]

wonderful post Irishlass

 

[DragonQueenHHP]

little mouse in my mind keeps peeping glycerin glycerin glycerin glycerin glycerin *wonders off to read the famously long post

 

[DragonQueenHHP]

hummm gonna have to give this a shot

 

[Hazel]

Now when you dilute if you leave it too soap heavy then it separates out which is why liquid soap is usually so thin.

Thank you! I now understand what happened to my one batch. I'll have to try again and add more water.

Hazel the soap temptress kept taunting me

Gosh! I sound like a terrible person - always taunting you. However, you excelled at it so I was right to mention it. I bet I'm going to be correct about cream soap, too. So there!

 

[Eurogal]

100 % olive liquid soap problem

Hi I have made 4 batches of liquid soap so far.

I have cooked all of them for about 3-4 hours, Tested for excess fatty acid, diluted it, and neutralized it.

1st batch - 100 % coconut , after about 3 hours of cooking it became translucent, i have diuluted, neutralized it, and it is now sequestering.
Still very thin, as i have not yet added borax to thicked it. My ph is around 9.

2nd batch - 50 % olive , and 50 % coconut, same thing cooked it for about 3 hours until translucent, diluted it neutralized it and it is also now sequestering. Also thin consistancy as it has also not been thickend with borax.

3rd batch 80% olive and 20 % coconut, after cooking for at least 4 hours it did not get translucent , tested for fatty acids, it was clear, so i diluted , neutralized it. However it is not clear, and it's very thick ,

4th batch 100 % olive, also did not go translucent after at least 4 hours of cooking, after diluting and neutralizing this one was also not clear, and very thick. Even when adding so much water, i had 1796g of paste and i diluted with 5976g of water . After boiling was done it weighed 6800g , which means it has 5L of water inside, and still so thick and congealing like. I dont know where i went wrong, or maybe it's normal with olive oil??

Both 3rd and 4th batched did not go the same was as my first two batches. I was thinking it's because of too much olive oil, in percentage wise of the recipe. So to thin it out a bit i tryed diluting again, batch # 3, i separated 1kg of soap and added 500 ml of water, and after boiling only an extra 250g approx of water stayed it, while the rest boiled out. It's much thinner now, but there are pieces flloating in it, that dont look so good, like cloudy slimy chunks. what does this mean. All my recipes are lye excess, so i don't know what's going on with the olive oil recipes. Please help .

Also when i do incorporate borax into my 1st and 2nd batch, i have to heat up the soap to add the borax right??

I cannot understand the difference between batch 1&2 vs batch 3&4. Batch 1 & 2 are sequestering but they have been for almost 5 days and it is so clear, with no seperation, I almost feel as if i could have just bottled batch 1 & 2 to start using at home, without sequestering.

Someone please help me with batch 3 & 4 as i dont know what went wrong, or if it is normal with olive oil, that they do not even go translucent when cooking them, but they did when diluting, the paste went translucent in the water.

 

[DragonQueenHHP]

can you show us the recipe you used for 100% OO one please

Here is my 100% OO one I just finished cooking, because it is 100% OO I will dilute it at 20%
I am a huge math flunky so I really don't understand grams to be able to tell what rate you are at and what water are you diluting with
:?
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[egirlxx7]

Ok, I punched in my figures into the advanced calculator of sbm

my actual paste weighs 1lb 7oz

Questions:
Am I supposed to be adding more water to the past to bring up my "done batch weight"? or is this only if using alcohol

and (to confirm) as per the photo attached, to neutralize my soap I will only be required to add 5 tablespoons of a borax solution.
That solution being 1oz borax with 4 oz of water

If i wish to thicken the soap?