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Emilee

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need some help with correct terminology on our soap labels

should we say that sodium hydroxide is in the ingredients, or just say saponified oils of: ......

i've seen both and just wondered what you all thought.

Also, if saying saponified oils of:.....

Are all the oils saponified. ie the base oils that mix with the lye/water, and also the oils/butters added at trace, or is it only the base oils?

any help much appreciated.
 

IrishLass

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I personally always list 'Sodium Hydroxide' in my ingredients because I know that at least 5% or more of my oils are not saponified due to how I superfat.


IrishLass
 

Emilee

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ok thanks.

I've read most of the other labeling discussions, and part of my question is answered.

I'm still not clear on the second part of the question. Are all the oils saponified, or just the initially mixed ones, and the ones added at trace are not saponified? Or does it depend on quantities.

Further, when I first made my soap recipe, I didn't have a scale, so I converted all my measurements to cups. While this seems much more inaccurate than measuring on a scale, my soaps come up great every time, so I'm wondering what all the fuss is about measuring to the exact detail.

Also, what is RTCP?
 

IrishLass

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Emilee said:
ok thanks.

I've read most of the other labeling discussions, and part of my question is answered.

I'm still not clear on the second part of the question. Are all the oils saponified, or just the initially mixed ones, and the ones added at trace are not saponified? Or does it depend on quantities.
It really depends on your recipe and how much you superfated it by. Most soap recipes (that I am aware of) in books and on the net are superfatted by a default level of 5% for safety's sake to compensate for the variations that can occur in the SAP values of different oils/fats. Different manufacturers of oils/fats don't always list the same SAP value for a given oil/fat that another manufacturer does, because of the different quality level of the oil/fat and how it was manufactured. This 5% provides a buffer zone that ensures that no free lye remains in the finished soap that can come back and bite you in the end (quite litally! :shock: ). That means that you will always have some oils/fats left over in your soap that remain unsaponified, unless, that is, you specially formulated your recipe to be superfatted at 0, which will make for a very drying, harsh bar of soap that is probably better fit for washing clothes than the human body. :shock:

Also, it doesn't matter when you add your oils- i.e. before trace or after trace. They are just as likely to get saponified as your oils/fats already in the pot. A chemist on another soaping forum I frequent was priveleged to be able to experiment on different handmade CP soap recipes in the lab. Her many experiments consistently showed that at trace, only a mere 10% of the oils/fats have actually been saponified by that time. So, anything you add at trace is just as likely to be eaten up by the lye as what you already have in your pot, especially when you consider that saponification is still going on for up to 3 days after you pour. Most of it takes place in the first 24 hours, but it's still going on for at least 3 days or more (but at a much slower rate). Also, lye is an equal opportunity saponifier and will not differentiate between what is already in the pot and what you add at trace (minus the 10% that's already saponified). Since it's impossible to control or to tell which oils/fats will remain unsaponified when all is said and done, it's much easier to just to figure in a superfat level in your soap recipe beforehand so that you'll have a nice superfatted buffer zone in the end, and then add all your oils up front in one fell swoop. The only way to have any control of ensuring a certain oil is not saponified is to HP your soap instead of doing it CP.

Emilee said:
Further, when I first made my soap recipe, I didn't have a scale, so I converted all my measurements to cups. While this seems much more inaccurate than measuring on a scale, my soaps come up great every time, so I'm wondering what all the fuss is about measuring to the exact detail.

Also, what is RTCP?

I'm a big believer in scales and make all my soaps by weight instead of volume, because (very important)- not everything weighs the same for a given volume. Weights are just the most consistently accurate way (weigh :wink: ) to go. And besides, all the reliable on-line lye calculators are configurated by weight, not by volume. Also- all the fragrance vendors list the percent of the usage rates of their fragrances and essential oils to be used in bath and body, by weight, not by volume. I think it's wonderful that you've had great soap to date, but because not everything weighs the same for a given volume, I believe it's much safer and more accurate to use a good scale, especially where lye is concerned. I just one of those that plain refuses to take any chances with my lye being off by any amount.


Re:RTCP. I've not done this method myself, but I believe it is mixing your hot lye/water mixture right into your unmelted oils/fats, thereby letting your hot lye melt the oils/fats instead of melting them on the stove beforehand. If I'm wrong I hope someone will correct me, but that was my understanding of it.

HTH!

IrishLass :)
 

Becky

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RTCP is Room Temprature Cold Process. In it's most literal translation, everything is room temp, even your lye solution.

I personnally don't like to use a pre-mixed lye solution, so when I do RTCP, I have my oils at room temp, but mix my lye as I soap.

This is only my personal preferance tho, based on the fact that I am a little bit of a messy soaper - I like to know that if there is water splashed on the counter it is only water, not lye solution :shock:

If you are more confident of your ability not to be as messy as me, then using pre-mixed lye shouldn't be an issue for you :lol:
 

divaknitting

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IrishLass said:
Emilee said:
ok thanks.

I've read most of the other labeling discussions, and part of my question is answered.

I'm still not clear on the second part of the question. Are all the oils saponified, or just the initially mixed ones, and the ones added at trace are not saponified? Or does it depend on quantities.
It really depends on your recipe and how much you superfated it by. Most soap recipes (that I am aware of) in books and on the net are superfatted by a default level of 5% for safety's sake to compensate for the variations that can occur in the SAP values of different oils/fats. Different manufacturers of oils/fats don't always list the same SAP value for a given oil/fat that another manufacturer does, because of the different quality level of the oil/fat and how it was manufactured. This 5% provides a buffer zone that ensures that no free lye remains in the finished soap that can come back and bite you in the end (quite litally! :shock: ). That means that you will always have some oils/fats left over in your soap that remain unsaponified, unless, that is, you specially formulated your recipe to be superfatted at 0, which will make for a very drying, harsh bar of soap that is probably better fit for washing clothes than the human body. :shock:

Also, it doesn't matter when you add your oils- i.e. before trace or after trace. They are just as likely to get saponified as your oils/fats already in the pot. A chemist on another soaping forum I frequent was priveleged to be able to experiment on different handmade CP soap recipes in the lab. Her many experiments consistently showed that at trace, only a mere 10% of the oils/fats have actually been saponified by that time. So, anything you add at trace is just as likely to be eaten up by the lye as what you already have in your pot, especially when you consider that saponification is still going on for up to 3 days after you pour. Most of it takes place in the first 24 hours, but it's still going on for at least 3 days or more (but at a much slower rate). Also, lye is an equal opportunity saponifier and will not differentiate between what is already in the pot and what you add at trace (minus the 10% that's already saponified). Since it's impossible to control or to tell which oils/fats will remain unsaponified when all is said and done, it's much easier to just to figure in a superfat level in your soap recipe beforehand so that you'll have a nice superfatted buffer zone in the end, and then add all your oils up front in one fell swoop. The only way to have any control of ensuring a certain oil is not saponified is to HP your soap instead of doing it CP.

Emilee said:
Further, when I first made my soap recipe, I didn't have a scale, so I converted all my measurements to cups. While this seems much more inaccurate than measuring on a scale, my soaps come up great every time, so I'm wondering what all the fuss is about measuring to the exact detail.

Also, what is RTCP?

I'm a big believer in scales and make all my soaps by weight instead of volume, because (very important)- not everything weighs the same for a given volume. Weights are just the most consistently accurate way (weigh :wink: ) to go. And besides, all the reliable on-line lye calculators are configurated by weight, not by volume. Also- all the fragrance vendors list the percent of the usage rates of their fragrances and essential oils to be used in bath and body, by weight, not by volume. I think it's wonderful that you've had great soap to date, but because not everything weighs the same for a given volume, I believe it's much safer and more accurate to use a good scale, especially where lye is concerned. I just one of those that plain refuses to take any chances with my lye being off by any amount.


Re:RTCP. I've not done this method myself, but I believe it is mixing your hot lye/water mixture right into your unmelted oils/fats, thereby letting your hot lye melt the oils/fats instead of melting them on the stove beforehand. If I'm wrong I hope someone will correct me, but that was my understanding of it.

HTH!

IrishLass :)
IrishLass...I would be very interested in think link to the discussion with the chemist RE: experiments and how much fat has saponified after given times. I have been looking for information like that everywhere and have yet to see mention of it until now.
 

IrishLass

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divaknitting said:
IrishLass...I would be very interested in think link to the discussion with the chemist RE: experiments and how much fat has saponified after given times. I have been looking for information like that everywhere and have yet to see mention of it until now.

I have some links to give you, but I just need to doublecheck with the moderation team if it's okay to post them here. The links are to another soaping forum, you see, and I just wanted to doublecheck that I won't be committing a forum faux pas by posting them. I'll get back to you as soon as I get the okay.


IrishLass
 

IrishLass

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Divaknitting-

I got the okay from Mandy (thanks Mandy :) ).

Here are a few links to discusions about saponification rates and superfatting. Look for the posts by Cranmere in each link. She's the one who did the experiments in the lab. She's truly a fount of soaping wisdom. HTH!:


http://www.soapdishforum.com/forum/inde ... =52849&hl=

http://www.soapdishforum.com/forum/inde ... saponified

http://www.soapdishforum.com/forum/inde ... =47077&hl=

http://www.soapdishforum.com/forum/inde ... =33852&hl=


IrishLass
 
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