Hard, dry, and cracky-cut soap

[alexanderte]

Yup, I’ve actually had 5% superfat for all my batches. I’ve used 40% lye concentration for most of my batches. I want to keep it that way and see if the time when I cut might solve my problem.

Do you have a good scale?? Could your measurements be off?

The scale I use is pretty good, but I know for some batches I’ve had some NaOH left in the pitcher because it’s gotten damp and sticky. I’ve bought a better pitcher and I also use a spatula to get most of it into the lye water solution, so it is no longer an issue.

I think you may want to invest in individual molds when you can. It would cut the frustration out and at least you'd get even bars of soap, give or take. You also wouldn't have to deal with crumbly bars of soap. Other than that, you just have to find the right timing for when to cut your soaps. There's not much that could be done outside of using another soap recipe.

I understand that individual cavity molds are more practical, but I fear that the soaps loses some of their charm – I like the aesthetics more of having a loaf that is cut into bars.

 

[joy.]

Have you tried refrigerating for 12-24 hours?

I'm having a hard time believing that new 100% olive oil soap is behaving that way because it my experience that's the opposite of the way it behaves.

I'm with you. I've made about a dozen batches of castille, some with goat milk instead of water, some with just distilled water, and all of them have been super soft for weeks. I have one small loaf that's been curing uncut for 2 months. I just sliced off a bar, and it took some muscle, but it sliced nicely with no chips or cracks.
I use a 2:1 lye ratio and this most recent batch was 5%SF. I use Costco brand olive oil. I usually refrigerate for 12 hrs, but now I'm super curious what would happen if I CPOPed a castille.

 

[DeeAnna]

Keep in mind that adulteration of olive oil is VERY common. Low grade olive is "upgraded" to virgin or non-olive is magically transformed into olive. If you're buying olive on the cheap, chances are pretty good you may well be making soap with high linoleic fats such as soy, corn, cottonseed, canola, etc. This may be the reason why some people have "castile" that stays soft for ages and others have solid bricks in 12 hours.

 

[soapgirltami]

I make my true Castile, 100% olive oil, with typical lye concentration. Never have a problem. Though I do use a water discount

 

[cmzaha]

I make my true Castile, 100% olive oil, with typical lye concentration. Never have a problem. Though I do use a water discount View attachment 22056

So what is your actual lye concentration. You mention using the typical lye concentration but then a water discount. Less water makes a higher lye concentration. Soap calc uses a default of 38% Water as percent of oil weight this results in a lye concentration of around 27%, that results in a lot of water for Castile soap. Using a 40% lye concentration will leave the water as % of Oil around 21% depending on the recipe. It is really better to work with lye concentration as opposed to Water as % of oil. Many here use 33% lye concentration if doing swirls.

 

[galaxyMLP]

My Castile soaps are made with 45% lye concentration and I add sodium citrate. Within 8 hours (I always gel and CPOP) it is hard as a rock. In fact, if the loaf is not warm, it will be too hard to cut and begin to crumble even with a wire cutter.

On the other hand, I made a Bastille soap with 90% olive, 5% coconut and 5% castor with a 31% lye concentration and that stayed soft for weeks and weeks. I cured it for over 3 months and even then it was no where near as hard as the low water Castile.

Also, I've made low water Castile salt bars. If I don't gel it, it will still be soft pudding 24 hours later. The moment it gels (even still warm) it will be nearly fully hard.

I think Castile is one of those soaps that really has to gel to be cut in a timely fashion. With lower water content, I have to bring the soap to at least 170 F to get gel. At 33% lye concentration, it starts gelling around 145 F. If I don't leave the oven on for at least an hour at 170 F with the low water (45%) Castile, I won't get full gel and the soap will be difficult to cut.

I think that's the difference between people's experiences here. Water concentration plays a huge role in Castile soap.

 

[reflection]

Keep in mind that adulteration of olive oil is VERY common. Low grade olive is "upgraded" to virgin or non-olive is magically transformed into olive. If you're buying olive on the cheap, chances are pretty good you may well be making soap with high linoleic fats such as soy, corn, cottonseed, canola, etc. This may be the reason why some people have "castile" that stays soft for ages and others have solid bricks in 12 hours.

deeanna, this is interesting. i have a bastile recipe i want to make but a few people who made the recipe commented they had problems with cracking & crumbling so i have been researching that. looking at threads on dry, cracking & crumbling soaps it seems to be a bit more common with high OO recipes. maybe it is the OOs people are using and they are adulterated and throwing off the other measurements (lye solution i guess) as you are suggesting. one more thing to consider.

 

[DeeAnna]

It's the adulterated "olive" oil -- the stuff that contains disguised non-olive oil -- is more likely to be soft and sticky, but the cause has nothing to do with the amount of NaOH used.

The NaOH required to saponify fats high in linoleic acid (canola, corn, soy, grapseed, hemp etc) is pretty close to the amount of NaOH needed to saponify fats high in oleic acid (olive, avocado, HO sunflower). Fire up Soapcalc and prove this for yourself -- you will see the amount of NaOH to saponify soy, corn, regular sunflower, and other high linoleic fats is almost the same as the NaOH needed to saponify olive, avocado, high oleic sunflower, and other high oleic fats.

My point was less less about the saponification value and more about the second double bond that linoleic acid has compared with oleic acid that only have a single double bond. That extra double bond is what causes high linoleic soap to often be soft for a longer time and also increases the tendency for this type of soap to go rancid (DOS) faster.

 

[joy.]

It's the adulterated "olive" oil -- the stuff that contains disguised non-olive oil -- is more likely to be soft and sticky, but the cause has nothing to do with the amount of NaOH used.

I saw a documentary about adulterated olive oil. I can't remember the stats, but it was something like over 70% of the olive oil on supermarket shelves isn't pure olive. They even went as far as to add green dye to make the other oils look more authentic. Crazy.

Costco brand stuff is typically pretty good, so I thought that one was a good bet. Sounds like it may not be...or it may just be my ratios and not gelling. I'm super curious now and will try a batch with a higher lye concentration and CPOP it to see if it comes out harder.

 

[shunt2011]

I have been using Costco olive oil for years and have never had a problem. Many on here use it as well.

 

[HollyGolddust]

Hello fellow soapers! I'm new to Soap Making Forum and just tried my first batch of Castile soap. It shattered like glass when I cut it.
I suspect this is because I didn't bother to let my 33% lye solution cool? (this is not what I usually do for cold process) It was about 165F when I poured it into room temp olive oil. The mixture was about 125F.
The loaf was hard 8 hours after pouring but I waited 24 hours out of habit.
Any insight would be appreciated!!
Pura Vida

 

[AliOop]

Oh rats, that's a shame! So, the temperature of the lye solution doesn't affect the final hardness of the bars. It will however affect the rate of saponification. In your case, the higher temps caused it to saponify and firm up faster. It definitely looks like you waited too long to cut it. Next time, cut it as soon as it's firm enough to cut, even if it's still a bit warm.

 

[HollyGolddust]

Oh rats, that's a shame! So, the temperature of the lye solution doesn't affect the final hardness of the bars. It will however affect the rate of saponification. In your case, the higher temps caused it to saponify and firm up faster. It definitely looks like you waited too long to cut it. Next time, cut it as soon as it's firm enough to cut, even if it's still a bit warm.

Thank you AliOop! I didn't know what factors the temps play in the process.
May your batters never seize and your swirls always turn out as intended!

 

[DeeAnna]

If you do cut soap early when it's still warm and still saponifying some, it's a good idea to wear gloves to protect your hands.

Don't ask me how I know this.