Experimenting with lye concentration and discount

[SudsyJurn]

Happy Monday everyone,

Over the weekend I decided to do some experiments to see what type of bar is produced from differing levels of lye concentration and discount.

I created a recipe using some bases I had on hand,
25% CO
35% OO
35% beef tallow
5% castor oil
I calculated the recipes as follows, with batches 1, 2 and 3 using a 5% lye discount and a 28%, 30%, and 33% lye concentration in that order. I then repeated this with batches 4 through 6 using a 10% lye discount, and 7 through 9 using a 15% lye discount.
I ended up with 9 "mini" batches of soap each yielding 3 bars. I left 2 of the bars plain and colored the 3rd bar with a 1/4 teaspoon of black walnut hull powder at trace to see how the colors would be affected over time.
I made all of the batches the exact same way and forced gel in the oven so there wouldn't be any discrepancies.
Over all it was a very insightful and amazing experiment. I throughly enjoyed watching how the batter would trace differently and how for some batter it would remain the same or stiffen up after a 2 minute wait period before I poured it into the molds. It was also very interesting to see and feel the difference in each bar as I unmolded the following day. Some bars were very blemished and others were perfectly smooth with an amazing shine to them.
Anywho, I thought I'd share my excitement and some pictures with you all.
The pictures are in order of how the batches were made i.e. Pictures 2 and 3 are batch 1 at the top and 3 at the bottom and so forth.

 

[cmzaha]

That is a good test, but I would have gone a step further and tested with 1-4% superfat.

 

[Megan]

That is a good test, but I would have gone a step further and tested with 1-4% superfat.

with that amount of CO....It makes me so itchy just thinking about it!

 

[cmzaha]

OOPS, sorry I did not notice the percentage of CO, I never go even close to that high except for Soleseife or Salt bars. Sorry, I need to pay better attention.

 

[shunt2011]

I wouldn't go over 20% CO and that much SF could potentially be a problem with rancidity with that much free oils. The only time I use a SF over 5-6% is Salt Soap at 18%. I'd watch them over time.

 

[SudsyJurn]

That is a good test, but I would have gone a step further and tested with 1-4% superfat.

Thank you! I kept reading and wondering how to know which percentages to work with, so its really nice to visually see the difference. I also enjoyed the practice of identify when emulsion was hit and the different stages of trace.
I made an 80% CO 20% OO bar with only 2% superfat last week for a laundry bar.
I'll have to try experimenting with that low of a superfat with less CO.

I wouldn't go over 20% CO and that much SF could potentially be a problem with rancidity with that much free oils. The only time I use a SF over 5-6% is Salt Soap at 18%. I'd watch them over time.

Thank you, I'm still learning what percentages of what bases to use. What could be used in place of CO? Or is it all just personal preference?

Just out of curiosity, I had read a couple of books where they tended to use CO and even in larger amounts in everything, but I've seen that a lot of people on here don't tend to care for it very much. Is it just because of the drying/harsher effects or other reasons as well?

Also, are SF values a personal thing or does it just depend on the recipe. Because those same books tended to use 10% and 15% SF a lot as well. Not arguing that the book is correct or anything I'm just asking purely out of curiosity and wanting to make a better soap.

I plan on checking them every week just to see how they change over time. It was all just for data and to be able to see the differences between the bars.

with that amount of CO....It makes me so itchy just thinking about it!

Not sure I'd want to try that low for a body bar, I have very very oily skin so the CO doesn't seem to bother me the way it does others. Not saying thats right or wrong but my skin tends to like it.

 

[Megan]

Just out of curiosity, I had read a couple of books where they tended to use CO and even in larger amounts in everything, but I've seen that a lot of people on here don't tend to care for it very much. Is it just because of the drying/harsher effects or other reasons as well?

Also, are SF values a personal thing or does it just depend on the recipe. Because those same books tended to use 10% and 15% SF a lot as well. Not arguing that the book is correct or anything I'm just asking purely out of curiosity and wanting to make a better soap.

Coconut oil is very drying in soap, I think a lot of us here like to keep our cleansing number down and with coconut, it's really hard to do that.

SF is a little bit dependent on recipe (I think moreso) and a little bit dependent on your personal preference. 10-15% is okay, but only if you use oils with really long shelf lives...because the free fat will begin to go rancid after a while. I'm sure the recipes that you are seeing with these superfats also have high coconut oil...right? The superfat will do a little to cut down on that high cleansing feeling.

 

[SudsyJurn]

Coconut oil is very drying in soap, I think a lot of us here like to keep our cleansing number down and with coconut, it's really hard to do that.

SF is a little bit dependent on recipe (I think moreso) and a little bit dependent on your personal preference. 10-15% is okay, but only if you use oils with really long shelf lives...because the free fat will begin to go rancid after a while. I'm sure the recipes that you are seeing with these superfats also have high coconut oil...right? The superfat will do a little to cut down on that high cleansing feeling.

Ok, that's sort of what I was thinking after I replied because the books were using lots of CO and also had those higher SF's.
Thank you for the response, I'm very thankful for all of the knowledgeable soapers here to help! Honestly some of this has been a bit overwhelming. I feel like everytime I think I'm starting to get I totally don't have it. Hahahaha. All part of the process I know, there's just so much more too it than meets the eye. Soap makers are on a whole other level.

 

[atiz]

You'll hear a lot of different things. I personally don't mind a 25% CO bar, especially for a hand soap. Some people don't use more than 20%, or even some no more than 10-15%.
In my regular soaps I use 20, in my "gentle" soap I use 10.

SF is also a personal preference, and there was a recent thread according to which it also depends on the location (Europeans use more). There's the idea that with a high SF you can make an otherwise drying soap not that drying; but if your soap is well formulated, I think you don't need that. I don't much like the idea of having much oil left in my soap, so I tend to use very low (1-2%). 5% seems to be the standard; you can go much higher in a salt bar.

 

[Megan]

Ok, that's sort of what I was thinking after I replied because the books were using lots of CO and also had those higher SF's.
Thank you for the response, I'm very thankful for all of the knowledgeable soapers here to help! Honestly some of this has been a bit overwhelming. I feel like everytime I think I'm starting to get I totally don't have it. Hahahaha. All part of the process I know, there's just so much more too it than meets the eye. Soap makers are on a whole other level.

I learn something new about soapmaking all of the time! It's one of the best parts of the craft!

 

[SudsyJurn]

You'll hear a lot of different things. I personally don't mind a 25% CO bar, especially for a hand soap. Some people don't use more than 20%, or even some no more than 10-15%.
In my regular soaps I use 20, in my "gentle" soap I use 10.

SF is also a personal preference, and there was a recent thread according to which it also depends on the location (Europeans use more). There's the idea that with a high SF you can make an otherwise drying soap not that drying; but if your soap is well formulated, I think you don't need that. I don't much like the idea of having much oil left in my soap, so I tend to use very low (1-2%). 5% seems to be the standard; you can go much higher in a salt bar.

Thank you! I will have to keep experimenting and learning!

 

[Arimara]

Thank you! I kept reading and wondering how to know which percentages to work with, so its really nice to visually see the difference. I also enjoyed the practice of identify when emulsion was hit and the different stages of trace.
I made an 80% CO 20% OO bar with only 2% superfat last week for a laundry bar.
I'll have to try experimenting with that low of a superfat with less CO.

I strongly suggest you don't use those bars for laundry. You don't want free standing oils on any level to be on your clothese, especially if you use a dryer.

 

[amd]

i normally agree with "no CO over 20%"... unless it's well aged. I have some that i made when I first started soapmaking (over 6 years ago) that are the 30/30/30/10 (OO/CO/Lard/Castor) recipe with 5% SF and my dry skin hated them. I brought them out of the box because they were starting to show initial spots of DOS so I threw one in the shower for hubby (oily skin) to use. I tried it just out of curiosity and it didn't bother my skin at all, I wouldn't have guess it was higher CO. I also made a batch of Royalty Soap recipe which uses 30% CO, and I've been using that at one of my sinks without it bothering my hands - and i wash my hands alot. I haven't tried it in the shower yet, but a friend that I gave it to really likes it. So that said... if you like the soap recipe don't change it.

i also agree that you might find some benefit to running the experiment with a lower SF as well. I use 3% SF as I seem to enjoy living in 100 year old houses that have old plumbing, it didn't take me long to discover that plumbers are expensive! I can also tell when I am using a lot of other people's soaps that have a higher SF, I clean a lot of goop out of our shower drain.

I'm a bit envious of your experiment, I miss the days when I could do these things because I had time and nothing else to make. (I sell so supplies/time are generally dedicated to the biz.)

 

[SudsyJurn]

I strongly suggest you don't use those bars for laundry. You don't want free standing oils on any level to be on your clothese, especially if you use a dryer.

Ok, thanks. Is there something else I could repurchase them for since they have such a high CO and low SF?

 

[Arimara]

Ok, thanks. Is there something else I could repurchase them for since they have such a high CO and low SF?

You could grate the bars and use it in a confetti soap. Just leave out any cleansing oils in the liquid portion.

 

[shunt2011]

Thank you, I'm still learning what percentages of what bases to use. What could be used in place of CO? Or is it all just personal preference?

Just out of curiosity, I had read a couple of books where they tended to use CO and even in larger amounts in everything, but I've seen that a lot of people on here don't tend to care for it very much. Is it just because of the drying/harsher effects or other reasons as well?

Also, are SF values a personal thing or does it just depend on the recipe. Because those same books tended to use 10% and 15% SF a lot as well. Not arguing that the book is correct or anything I'm just asking purely out of curiosity and wanting to make a better soap.

I plan on checking them every week just to see how they change over time. It was all just for data and to be able to see the differences between the bars.

Yes, its because it's a cleansing oil in soap. `I'm over 60 and my skin doesn't mind higher CO. I've kept mine at 20% for the most part and my customers have never complained and most return year after year.

SF's are personal, but keep in mind there's really no way to know what exactly your SF is and lye is never 100% lye so that will give you a bit more SF too in your product. I started out at 7-9% but have found it's totally not necessary. 15% is just way too much and 10 is pushing it personally.

There's really no need to have a high SF if you've got a well rounded product. Just test them and see what you like.

 

[dibbles]

About CO percentage preference...I think a lot of people start making their own soap because of dry, sensitive or otherwise problem skin. For those people, CO over 10-20% is something they don't like. I often use CO at 25% with no problems. I rarely use less than 20%. So, if you like your soap at 25%, there is nothing wrong with that. If you've never made a batch with 15%-20%, give it a try and see if it makes any difference to you.

 

[SudsyJurn]

i normally agree with "no CO over 20%"... unless it's well aged. I have some that i made when I first started soapmaking (over 6 years ago) that are the 30/30/30/10 (OO/CO/Lard/Castor) recipe with 5% SF and my dry skin hated them. I brought them out of the box because they were starting to show initial spots of DOS so I threw one in the shower for hubby (oily skin) to use. I tried it just out of curiosity and it didn't bother my skin at all, I wouldn't have guess it was higher CO. I also made a batch of Royalty Soap recipe which uses 30% CO, and I've been using that at one of my sinks without it bothering my hands - and i wash my hands alot. I haven't tried it in the shower yet, but a friend that I gave it to really likes it. So that said... if you like the soap recipe don't change it.

i also agree that you might find some benefit to running the experiment with a lower SF as well. I use 3% SF as I seem to enjoy living in 100 year old houses that have old plumbing, it didn't take me long to discover that plumbers are expensive! I can also tell when I am using a lot of other people's soaps that have a higher SF, I clean a lot of goop out of our shower drain.

I'm a bit envious of your experiment, I miss the days when I could do these things because I had time and nothing else to make. (I sell so supplies/time are generally dedicated to the biz.)

Thank you for the input! I will definitely be trying it again with a lower SF, and a tweaked recipe. I had made an almost castile soap and wasn't a huge fan of the googiness of it.

 

[SudsyJurn]

Yes, its because it's a cleansing oil in soap. `I'm over 60 and my skin doesn't mind higher CO. I've kept mine at 20% for the most part and my customers have never complained and most return year after year.

SF's are personal, but keep in mind there's really no way to know what exactly your SF is and lye is never 100% lye so that will give you a bit more SF too in your product. I started out at 7-9% but have found it's totally not necessary. 15% is just way too much and 10 is pushing it personally.

There's really no need to have a high SF if you've got a well rounded product. Just test them and see what you like.

Thank you! Yeah, I agree my skin tend to like the higher CO amount but I have very oily skin so I think that helps. I will definitely be doing some more research and experimenting since other have more sensitive/dry skin than my own.

About CO percentage preference...I think a lot of people start making their own soap because of dry, sensitive or otherwise problem skin. For those people, CO over 10-20% is something they don't like. I often use CO at 25% with no problems. I rarely use less than 20%. So, if you like your soap at 25%, there is nothing wrong with that. If you've never made a batch with 15%-20%, give it a try and see if it makes any difference to you.

Thank you!

 

[cmzaha]

Even with oily skin it you overly strip the oil it can cause the oil glands to overreact.