CPLS : Water seperation & Oily residue

[Lankan]

Hi, The cold processed Liquid Soap I made a month back using palm oil, coconut oil and sunflower oil blend on KOH, has experienced following issues,

1 . Approx 20% of the water separated from the paste when it left to sit for a day after trace ( I didn't stick blend till it becomes fully paste like. I stopped it when it become thick and fluffy, but the there were some part little watery.)
2. After diluting the paste at approx 1:2 in water and tiny amount of salt to thicken the resulting liquid, now it leaves out a oily residue in hand when used.

I don't think I can continue to use this as is. I am wondering whether there are any methods to rectify/re-batch the paste to make it usable.

 

[BattleGnome]

How much of your ingredients did you use? Can you post your full recipe as you measured it? Can you post a pic of the separation?

With your description, it sounds like you mismeasured your KOH. I’m not experienced enough to diagnose with certainty from your description.

 

[Lankan]

How much of your ingredients did you use? Can you post your full recipe as you measured it? Can you post a pic of the separation?

With your description, it sounds like you mismeasured your KOH. I’m not experienced enough to diagnose with certainty from your description.

Palm oil - 340g
Sunflower oil - 159g
Coconut oil - 85g
KOH - 131g (BB soap cal)
Water - 367g
Water soluble red color

Once I finished stick blending filled the not so thick blend in three bottles, two are transparent & the other one is not transparent. I was able to see the water separating and accumulating at the bottom in the transparent bottles. Since there was separation, tried to keep the transparent bottles warm by putting in hot water (thinking it might support saponification). Later took out the paste from those two bottles and put on a cup. Now the paste is sitting on a bottle and a cup which are not transparent. Hence no photos to show.

 

[Susie]

Your recipe checks out on Soapee as having ~1% SF. If you could go through your process from melting the oils to bottling the paste (?), we may be able to troubleshoot it for you. I am, however, really confused about you bottling the paste. If you had paste, it would not go in a bottle, so this may be the issue.

 

[DeeAnna]

I'm confused like Susie -- your last post makes it sound like you poured the soap batter into bottles while it was still actively saponifying.

What you've got in those bottles is possibly a mixture of water, oil, KOH, and some soap. The slick feeling on your skin could be from unsaponified oil OR it could be the slick feeling from strong alkali breaking down the proteins in your skin.

If my impression is correct, the soap needed to finish saponifying first! After saponification, the finished soap is typically a firm gel. At that point, it can be diluted with additional water and bottled.

 

[Lankan]

Sorry that I wasn't descriptive enough. Actually I stopped stick blending after the blend turned into like froth. So I was able to use a cone to pour the stuff into bottles. Although it was just a consistent at the beginning. but after few hours some water (20%) separated out and settled. the rest it thick like paste. Initially when I checked the pH strip indicated very high value. However, after few days it improved. What I diluted is only the paste.

 

[DeeAnna]

Hmmm. If you separated the paste-like portions from the runnier liquid and discarded the liquid, then it's possible the remaining paste is very high in fat. That is perhaps why the "soap" feels greasy. The liquid contained the extra KOH needed to fully saponify the fat into soap -- you can't just throw that away and get acceptable results.

Did you follow someone else's procedure on the internet or in a book? I'm curious about this method of making liquid soap -- it's not at all the way I do it. I would like to evaluate the method you used more closely, if it is available in a tutorial or article.

 

[Susie]

I'm with DeeAnna on this one. You should never have been able to "pour" saponified soap into a container. It should have been a paste. I, too, would like to see/read whatever tutorial or book you used.

 

[BattleGnome]

I’m curious about your stick blend technique. You said you blended until “frothy.” Did you get trace or just bubbles? Soap doesn’t blend like you would expect a cake mix or a soup to blend. It’s a bit more like trying to read stiff peaks when whipping up egg whites: the stiffer and more opaque the more established your trace is

 

[Lankan]

Hmmm. If you separated the paste-like portions from the runnier liquid and discarded the liquid, then it's possible the remaining paste is very high in fat. That is perhaps why the "soap" feels greasy. The liquid contained the extra KOH needed to fully saponify the fat into soap -- you can't just throw that away and get acceptable results.

Did you follow someone else's procedure on the internet or in a book? I'm curious about this method of making liquid soap -- it's not at all the way I do it. I would like to evaluate the method you used more closely, if it is available in a tutorial or article.

I didn't follow any specific guidelines. I followed the same steps in making NaOH soap and changed to KOH based on BB SoapCal. I kept the spinning blade of the stick blender well immersed in the blend to avoid creating air bubbles. It took much longer time than bar soap takes to trace. In fact I was wondering whether I've added enough oils and KOH required. However I kept stick blending over 30minutes and thereafter only the mix started to turn like froth. By the time I stopped I hasn't turned fully paste like. But all what I can see is the froth like stuff. I would say it is somewhere between oil and paste.

I must admit I started the process without proper research or reading on CPLS, and assumed most would be as same as bar soap making except changing the lye. I hardly had any proper idea how the trace would look like. Throwing away the water separated may have resulted in excess oil left in the mix.

I’m curious about your stick blend technique. You said you blended until “frothy.” Did you get trace or just bubbles? Soap doesn’t blend like you would expect a cake mix or a soup to blend. It’s a bit more like trying to read stiff peaks when whipping up egg whites: the stiffer and more opaque the more established your trace is

I didn't get any bubbles when stick blending, keeping the spinning blade well immersed helped in that case I guess. Since I have used the red blood color, the stuff I'm left with looks like Jelly. Although the diluted soap leaves out greasy feel, it does produce good lather .

 

[Barmaid]

I think the problem is that you used the cold process method for making liquid soap. I have made many batches of liquid soap, and I have always used the hot process method. I would suggest Jackie Thompsons liquid soapmaking book, or the oldie but goodie, making natural liquid soaps by Catherine Failor. Start over, and have fun!
I also think you may have used too high a percentage of solid oils. And liquid soap often has both KOH and NaOH

 

[earlene]

I don't think the problem is the CP method as a method. It is well documented here on SMF how well it works. See this post by Susie in 2014: https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/cold-process-liquid-soap.49852/

There are more discussions if you look for them, however, I would suggest you thoroughly read through Susie's thread before making any more liquid soap.

I believe what you have is probably not easily salvageable for a beginner since you don't really know how much liquid you lost when you tossed it. If you are stubborn and want to make this soap work, which is something I do understand (but it risks wasting more time and energy if you don't get it right), then I have no fixing it types of suggestions.

My suggestions are: Read that thread I linked. Then try one of Susie's recipes or a slight tweak using your desired oils. Soapee is an easy to use soap calculator, so I would suggest using it also for your next LS. (Link to Soapee calculator.)

There is also a very helpful set of directions by IrishLass on making CP LS using glycerin, but as you already had a problem with plain LS, I would not suggest moving to the glycerin method until you have mastered CPLS without it. (Link to IL's thread.)

 

[DeeAnna]

A cold process method will work fine to make liquid soap, but there are important differences between making bar soap (NaOH) and liquid soap (KOH) that are good to know before making liquid soap for the first time, especially with a cold process method.

At this point, honestly, I'd trash this soap. It's impossible to know how to fix it. Here are resources about making liquid soap that I've found helpful --

Irish Lass: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?p=428988 see posts 8 and 9
and: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=57974

Susie: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=49852

Another good resource is this:
https://milesawayfarm.wordpress.com/2015/04/22/liquid-soapmaking-where-to-start/

Here is an article I have written with tips about formulating liquid soap recipes. It's not finished, but some parts may be useful to you --
https://classicbells.com/soap/liquidSoapDRAFT.html

@Barmaid -- It is theoretically possible to use any type of fat or blend of fats to make liquid soap, although I agree with you that some fats work better to make liquid soap than others. Also, a lot of liquid soap is made with KOH only. I know some people claim a small amount of NaOH helps the diluted soap to be thicker, but I don't think that always holds true for all liquid soap recipes.

 

[Barmaid]

Thanks for all the info. I read through Suzies post, it appears to be more of a Countertop Hot Process method. But we all say things differently! Maybe some day I will try it, but my liquid soaps are true hot processed and done in one day, so I am not sure if that would be worth it! Interesting though...
I use both naoh and koh, they work together to create more energy for the alkalis, add viscosity and boost lather. To each their own, that is why I said they are often used together. I know that some people like to just use KOH. It was just a suggestion.

 

[DeeAnna]

Mine are done in an hour, cleanup included.

"...I know that some people like to just use KOH. It was just a suggestion...."

Yes -- and it is a valid suggestion to share. I think I'd steer a new person to use only KOH for the first few batches to keep things simple, but once you get the basics figured out, a blend of NaOH and KOH is certainly something to try.

 

[Lankan]

Thanks, I also understand that there is no easy way to know how much oil is left unsaponified. I'll go thru the links suggested. I do prefer CP over HP in both bar & liquid soap making. I've taken out the paste what I left in the container and put in in water last night. Although it looked like jelly, there were parts which were like thick pieces and part more oily liquid. I took out only the thick pieces to dilute. Let me see how it looks after diluting.

I don't know how to safely throw way the leftovers. would mixing vinegar help.?.

 

[Susie]

I think at this point your leftovers are probably not lye heavy. Possibly exactly the opposite. I would just put into regular garbage.

I need to note that I use IrishLass/3bees1flower/Carrie's liquid glycerin soap recipe with the modifications that are discussed in the long thread for my hand soap. I highly recommend it.

Suggestion's for the future:
1. Post any proposed recipe on this forum for review/critique before making.
2. Be sure to run all recipes through a lye calculator for yourself. Typos happen, and even if tried and true, it is still good practice.
3. Be sure to follow method recommendations exactly until you get a few successful batches under your belt.
4. Don't color or scent until you are sure the batch is good.
5. Don't dilute the whole thing at once. Dilute a little for a test batch first. Liquid soap is very forgiving of mistakes until you start dilution, so changes can be made until then.
6. Don't toss any batch until you troubleshoot it with us on the forum.
7. Don't give up. We all had to learn just like you are. Mistakes were made, and we learned from them.
8. Remember that everyone has an opinion. I may not agree with others, but they are not necessarily wrong. What works for them may not work for me. Wait until you get a few frequent posters replies back before taking any one answer as fact.
9. Read, read, read threads on the liquid soap forum. Read all of the ones that have "help" in the title. Read all of the long glycerin thread above. Yep, all umpteen pages of it. Very valuable stuff in that.

 

[Lankan]

Thanks all for your encouragement and advises. As I mentioned in my last post, I did dilute the selected portion of the paste at 1:2 ratio and used salt as thickener. It seems to be leaving less oily residue.

The balance paste I have is the more like liquid, which I'm going to throw away as suggested.

On a side note, what exactly happens when we add salt, does it break soap and brings out the oil back?

 

[DeeAnna]

"...when we add salt, does it break soap and brings out the oil back?..."

It doesn't break up the soap molecules. Once fats are saponified into soap, will never become fats again. You might want to read up on the chemistry of saponification -- there are some good, basic articles on the internet about that.

Salt simply thickens some types of soap ... up to a point. If you add too much salt will make the soap thin again. And it doesn't always work with all soap recipes.

The answer about why salt does this is too long and complicated to provide in a sentence or two. See https://classicbells.com/soap/liquidSoapDRAFT.html and https://classicbells.com/soap/saltOutTut.html for more information about how salt works in soap.