CP vs. HP
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Bunny
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I make CP and HP, using the same recipes for both, BUT (and this is a big but!), for CP my recipes have about a 33% lye solution. That would not fly with HP. So I simply add in more water for HP. As a rule, here it is: For CP I like to use a 33% lye solution which breaks down to about 1 part lye to 2 parts water. If my recipe calls for 1 pound of lye, I use 2 pounds of water.
For HP, I normally use about a 25% lye solution, unless I am adding milk (but milk is for another thread.
) For a 25% lye solution, you will use 1 part lye to 3 parts water. So, if your recipe calls for 1 pound of lye, you will use 3 pounds of water if you are doing HP. I've been making HP for about 15 years or more now (CP soap for many more years than that). I have made some real messes, LOL. But this rule of thumb is pretty simple and pretty fool proof. With that much water in your HP, you can cook the goonies out of it until you know it is done, without the worry of it drying out.
For HP, I normally use about a 25% lye solution, unless I am adding milk (but milk is for another thread.
) For a 25% lye solution, you will use 1 part lye to 3 parts water. So, if your recipe calls for 1 pound of lye, you will use 3 pounds of water if you are doing HP. I've been making HP for about 15 years or more now (CP soap for many more years than that). I have made some real messes, LOL. But this rule of thumb is pretty simple and pretty fool proof. With that much water in your HP, you can cook the goonies out of it until you know it is done, without the worry of it drying out.
Crazy8
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Wow Bunny that's a lot of great info. I will have to keep record of that and pay attention to the recipes I come across and/or make myself. Thank again for posting that.
Love the verses in your signature also. Just noticed those.
Love the verses in your signature also. Just noticed those.
Crazy8
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Well I am about to order Stearic Acid and a mold from ED. How much Stearic acid gets used in a batch that size? Im also curious on how you configure those types of ingredients into a soap calc, especially since it can have such a huge affect?
I also have my tallow made. Im still wondering when I sub the OO for tallow if I should be using the same amount of tallow as I currently have for the OO?
While I am about to order, are there any other ingredients I should consider adding to my shaving soap to make it even better? Maybe jojoba oil?
While you're ordering stuff, you probably want to order sodium lactate. Added to HP soap, it makes it much more fluid and more pourable when it's finished. I have not made HP with as much water as Bunny upthread (although I'm going to give that a try) and sodium lactate made a HUGE difference between "pouring" soap the texture of...crabcakes? Salmon patties? (Seriously, imagine something moist, yet crusty) and pouring goopy mashed potatoes. (However I am still concerned for your success with a pvc mold)
Re laser thermometers, they read instantly, so just use a spoon to whip aside the cool "crust" and you have an accurate read.
Re laser thermometers, they read instantly, so just use a spoon to whip aside the cool "crust" and you have an accurate read.
Stinkydancer
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I make CP and HP, using the same recipes for both, BUT (and this is a big but!), for CP my recipes have about a 33% lye solution. That would not fly with HP. So I simply add in more water for HP. As a rule, here it is: For CP I like to use a 33% lye solution which breaks down to about 1 part lye to 2 parts water. If my recipe calls for 1 pound of lye, I use 2 pounds of water.
For HP, I normally use about a 25% lye solution, unless I am adding milk (but milk is for another thread.
This...oh and I like HP soap better than CP- same recipe I use exactly other than water amount and HP soap rocks the lather and scent more than CP. I learned HP before CP through my grams and while the soap isn't as pretty- it makes up for it in lather and scent.
Crazy8
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I hate to keep beating a dead horse but does anyone have the answer to this question when tallow was first recommended?
"I also have my tallow made. Im still wondering when I sub the OO for tallow if I should be using the same amount of tallow as I currently have for the OO?"
So since I will be removing the olive oil and putting tallow in its place is it a 1:1 replacement? If not, how much tallow should I put in instead of the olive oil?
"I also have my tallow made. Im still wondering when I sub the OO for tallow if I should be using the same amount of tallow as I currently have for the OO?"
So since I will be removing the olive oil and putting tallow in its place is it a 1:1 replacement? If not, how much tallow should I put in instead of the olive oil?
Yes you can change all your olive to tallow and see how that works for you. You may still have to tweak your recipe to get something that you're happy with, but that's what soap making is all about, finding just the right combination that works for you and your skin. Have fun, Sissy
Don't forget to rerun this on your soap calculator to get your new lye amount. ( im sure you know this but if I didn't say it someone else would)
Don't forget to rerun this on your soap calculator to get your new lye amount. ( im sure you know this but if I didn't say it someone else would)
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Is this the recipe you're talking about?
Here is the recipe...
40% beef tallow, 24% castor oil, 22% cocoa butter, 5% coconut oil, and 5% olive oil, and 4% avocado oil.
Water 6.08oz (from soapcalc)
Lye 2.23oz (from soapcalc)
A typical shaving soap recipe does not contain any olive oil, so I would eliminate the OO and add in the tallow for a total of 45%. Be sure to check the lye amount by running the revised recipe through SoapCalc. (I apologize if you know to do this already. Some people don't, and I'm being cautious.)
Here is the recipe...
40% beef tallow, 24% castor oil, 22% cocoa butter, 5% coconut oil, and 5% olive oil, and 4% avocado oil.
Water 6.08oz (from soapcalc)
Lye 2.23oz (from soapcalc)
A typical shaving soap recipe does not contain any olive oil, so I would eliminate the OO and add in the tallow for a total of 45%. Be sure to check the lye amount by running the revised recipe through SoapCalc. (I apologize if you know to do this already. Some people don't, and I'm being cautious.)
Crazy8
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Sistrum - Thank you very much for that. I appreciate you clearing that up. I will be sure to make the needed changes in my current recipe to account for the substitution.
DeeAnna - There wasn't any specific recipe that I was talking about other than the one in the original post, but this is good to see and may still be of use to me.
-Thank you both for pointing out the soap calc thing. Yeah I do know this already but im also a blonde air head who forgets so I love a good reminder and do not take any offence to it. Plus getting in the habit of using it is something we all need to do anyway.
-I didn't get any sodium lactate this time around but I did get Potassium Hydroxide (2 pounds) and Stearic Acid (5 pounds).
I have been kind of interested in trying to figure out, how do you figure how much of (insert chemical here, such as stearic acid, KOH, etc.) to us in a batch of whatever it is your making? I mean I know with my many many searches of finding a shaving soap recipe they will tell you the oils, fats, and lye solution but I have to come across one (except for in here) that mentions even the use of stearic acid or KOH.
DeeAnna - There wasn't any specific recipe that I was talking about other than the one in the original post, but this is good to see and may still be of use to me.
-Thank you both for pointing out the soap calc thing. Yeah I do know this already but im also a blonde air head who forgets so I love a good reminder and do not take any offence to it. Plus getting in the habit of using it is something we all need to do anyway.
-I didn't get any sodium lactate this time around but I did get Potassium Hydroxide (2 pounds) and Stearic Acid (5 pounds).
I have been kind of interested in trying to figure out, how do you figure how much of (insert chemical here, such as stearic acid, KOH, etc.) to us in a batch of whatever it is your making? I mean I know with my many many searches of finding a shaving soap recipe they will tell you the oils, fats, and lye solution but I have to come across one (except for in here) that mentions even the use of stearic acid or KOH.
"... have to come across one (except for in here) that mentions even the use of stearic acid or KOH. ..."
That's because there are several folks on this forum who are good at shaving soap formulating (not me!) and have been generous to share some tips with the rest of us (that would be me!) Also if you read some of the shaving forums, you can learn a lot about what makes a good shaving soap.
If you read the ingredients list on a commercial shaving soap container, you might see sodium cocoate or potassium cocoate. That tells me that sodium hydroxide (NaOH) or potassium hydroxide (KOH) was used to saponify coconut oil. If a person likes this particular shaving soap and KOH has been used to make it .... well, there you are. You need KOH to make a similar type of shaving soap.
Same with stearic acid. Some shaving soaps include sodium stearate or potassium stearate listed as an ingredient. What this tells me is pure stearic acid has been used in the recipe. Stearic acid isn't used a lot in "normal" bath soaps, but it is used often in lotions and in shaving soaps.
Some people formulate shaving soaps without the use of stearic acid -- they prefer to use fats only. That's a legitimate choice, but they are aware this limits the max stearic % that can be achieved. Even so, these folks are still trying to get that stearic level up as high as possible. Tallow is usually a main ingredient, but there are other higher-stearic fats that can be included if that is the direction you want to go.
100% KOH is used to make liquid soaps. A blend of KOH and NaOH is used to make semi-solid soaps -- "cream" soaps (soaps that are a soft whipped-cream texture, not soaps made with dairy cream) and some shaving soaps and shaving creams. In a blend, the KOH makes the soap more soluble in water, so it lathers easier. It also makes the soap softer depending on the amount of KOH used. Some shaving soaps have KOH, others don't. Again, it's a personal and esthetic choice.
Rambling here -- hope this gives you some insights....
That's because there are several folks on this forum who are good at shaving soap formulating (not me!) and have been generous to share some tips with the rest of us (that would be me!) Also if you read some of the shaving forums, you can learn a lot about what makes a good shaving soap.
If you read the ingredients list on a commercial shaving soap container, you might see sodium cocoate or potassium cocoate. That tells me that sodium hydroxide (NaOH) or potassium hydroxide (KOH) was used to saponify coconut oil. If a person likes this particular shaving soap and KOH has been used to make it .... well, there you are. You need KOH to make a similar type of shaving soap.
Same with stearic acid. Some shaving soaps include sodium stearate or potassium stearate listed as an ingredient. What this tells me is pure stearic acid has been used in the recipe. Stearic acid isn't used a lot in "normal" bath soaps, but it is used often in lotions and in shaving soaps.
Some people formulate shaving soaps without the use of stearic acid -- they prefer to use fats only. That's a legitimate choice, but they are aware this limits the max stearic % that can be achieved. Even so, these folks are still trying to get that stearic level up as high as possible. Tallow is usually a main ingredient, but there are other higher-stearic fats that can be included if that is the direction you want to go.
100% KOH is used to make liquid soaps. A blend of KOH and NaOH is used to make semi-solid soaps -- "cream" soaps (soaps that are a soft whipped-cream texture, not soaps made with dairy cream) and some shaving soaps and shaving creams. In a blend, the KOH makes the soap more soluble in water, so it lathers easier. It also makes the soap softer depending on the amount of KOH used. Some shaving soaps have KOH, others don't. Again, it's a personal and esthetic choice.
Rambling here -- hope this gives you some insights....
Mark the Box Guy
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I'm one of those shavers, for what it's worth.
An updated version of Mitchell's Wool Fat is sold by Kent, and the ingredients are thus:
Sodium Tallowate, Potassium Stearate, Sodium Cocoate, Sodium Stearate, Aqua, Potassium Cocoate, Glycerin, Parfum, Alpha-Isomethyl Ionone, Hexyl Cinnamal, Limonene, Linalool, Hydroxycitronellal, Lanolin, Titanium Dioxide, Sodium Chloride, Sodium Gluconate, Sodium Silicate, Tetrasodium EDTA, Magnesium Sulphate, Tetrasodium Etidronate.
Frankly, it sounds like a lot of chemistry-set gobbly-gook, but a closer examination yields some interesting and bizarre insight. First: there seems to be a mix of NaOH and KOH, which is bizarre, for The Fat is as hard as a rock. Next: the primary skin softening ingredient is a KOH Coconut Oil, not Lanolin, which tells me that this soap is misguided and just plain wrong. Also: there is a lot (>30%, approx) of both NaOH and KOH Stearic Acid, which when added to the tallow is a sheep-load of stearic acid.
My sense is that this soap probably performs well, but isn't really The Fat, and should be disregarded for producing lather in very poor taste. The real Mitchell's Wool Fat is a simple shave soap that wants care and attention when you use it, not when you make it, and in that way is elegant like a fine woman: confusing and somewhat odd, but ultimately worth the effort. My guess is that the ingredients around in the 1930's, when Mitchell first became concerned with beards and sheep, was tallow (probably from a sheep), Lanolin, a bit of Castor oil, and old-fashioned lye. A pinch of clay and a dash of glycerin never hurts, either. My humble suggestion is that you start there. You might also consider not judging it too harshly after a few weeks and a test lather. This soap needs to be used, and you must learn how your batch wants to treated. Does it get a soaking wet brush? Is the brush Boar or Badger? Do you use a scuttle? You should consider using one, to keep the soap hot, when some of its really beautiful qualities reveal themselves.
Enough said.
An updated version of Mitchell's Wool Fat is sold by Kent, and the ingredients are thus:
Sodium Tallowate, Potassium Stearate, Sodium Cocoate, Sodium Stearate, Aqua, Potassium Cocoate, Glycerin, Parfum, Alpha-Isomethyl Ionone, Hexyl Cinnamal, Limonene, Linalool, Hydroxycitronellal, Lanolin, Titanium Dioxide, Sodium Chloride, Sodium Gluconate, Sodium Silicate, Tetrasodium EDTA, Magnesium Sulphate, Tetrasodium Etidronate.
Frankly, it sounds like a lot of chemistry-set gobbly-gook, but a closer examination yields some interesting and bizarre insight. First: there seems to be a mix of NaOH and KOH, which is bizarre, for The Fat is as hard as a rock. Next: the primary skin softening ingredient is a KOH Coconut Oil, not Lanolin, which tells me that this soap is misguided and just plain wrong. Also: there is a lot (>30%, approx) of both NaOH and KOH Stearic Acid, which when added to the tallow is a sheep-load of stearic acid.
My sense is that this soap probably performs well, but isn't really The Fat, and should be disregarded for producing lather in very poor taste. The real Mitchell's Wool Fat is a simple shave soap that wants care and attention when you use it, not when you make it, and in that way is elegant like a fine woman: confusing and somewhat odd, but ultimately worth the effort. My guess is that the ingredients around in the 1930's, when Mitchell first became concerned with beards and sheep, was tallow (probably from a sheep), Lanolin, a bit of Castor oil, and old-fashioned lye. A pinch of clay and a dash of glycerin never hurts, either. My humble suggestion is that you start there. You might also consider not judging it too harshly after a few weeks and a test lather. This soap needs to be used, and you must learn how your batch wants to treated. Does it get a soaking wet brush? Is the brush Boar or Badger? Do you use a scuttle? You should consider using one, to keep the soap hot, when some of its really beautiful qualities reveal themselves.
Enough said.
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Mark the Box Guy
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One last note on Mitchell's Wool Fat: Though I would normally smack my grad students for referencing the Wikipedia, in this case its description of "simplicity" is proper.
"Simplicity is the property, condition, or quality of being simple or un-combined. It often denotes beauty, purity, or clarity. Simple things are usually easier to explain and understand than complicated ones. It is also a term used to denote candor, guilelessness, innocence, straightforwardness, and freedom from duplicity."
"Simplicity is the property, condition, or quality of being simple or un-combined. It often denotes beauty, purity, or clarity. Simple things are usually easier to explain and understand than complicated ones. It is also a term used to denote candor, guilelessness, innocence, straightforwardness, and freedom from duplicity."
Crazy8
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So my shipment of stuff came today, and one of those things was a 5lb bag Stearic Acid. I also got KOH. So I decided to plug the numbers back into soapcalc and this is what I got now taking what I have been told into consideration...
Total oil weight 16
Water as percent of oil weight 38 %
Super Fat/Discount 0 %
Lye Concentration 27.483 %
Water : Lye Ratio 2.639:1
Sat : Unsat Ratio 72 : 28
Iodine 27
INS 173
Fragrance Ratio 1
Fragrance Weight 1 Oz
Ingredient Pounds Ounces Grams
Water 0.38 6.08 172.365
Lye - NaOH 0.144 2.304 65.324
# √ Oil/Fat % Pounds Ounces Grams
1 Tallow Beef 30 0.3 4.8 136.078
2 Coconut Oil, 76 deg 10 0.1 1.6 45.359
3 Castor Oil 14 0.14 2.24 63.503
4 Stearic Acid 46 0.46 7.36 208.652
Totals NaN 1 16 453.592
Soap Bar Quality Suggested Range Your Recipe
Hardness 29 - 54 71
Cleansing 12 - 22 9
Conditioning 44 - 69 27
Bubbly 14 - 46 22
Creamy 16 - 48 74
Iodine 41 - 70 27
INS 136 - 165 173
Lauric 5
Myristic 4
Palmitic 9
Stearic 52
Ricinoleic 13
Oleic 12
Linoleic 2
Linolenic 0
Is that ok for Stearic Acid to account for 46% of the batch ingredients? I tried to bump the Stearic up to the suggested 55 and so this is what I have now. Not sure that the rest of the numbers are what I am looking for either. I have seen a recipe where there was Lye and KOH being used and split about 70/40. soapcalc cannot account for that and not sure if its something I should try. Any thoughts?
So I decided to plug the numbers back into soapcalc and this is what I got now taking what I have been told into consideration...Total oil weight 16
Water as percent of oil weight 38 %
Super Fat/Discount 0 %
Lye Concentration 27.483 %
Water : Lye Ratio 2.639:1
Sat : Unsat Ratio 72 : 28
Iodine 27
INS 173
Fragrance Ratio 1
Fragrance Weight 1 Oz
Ingredient Pounds Ounces Grams
Water 0.38 6.08 172.365
Lye - NaOH 0.144 2.304 65.324
# √ Oil/Fat % Pounds Ounces Grams
1 Tallow Beef 30 0.3 4.8 136.078
2 Coconut Oil, 76 deg 10 0.1 1.6 45.359
3 Castor Oil 14 0.14 2.24 63.503
4 Stearic Acid 46 0.46 7.36 208.652
Totals NaN 1 16 453.592
Soap Bar Quality Suggested Range Your Recipe
Hardness 29 - 54 71
Cleansing 12 - 22 9
Conditioning 44 - 69 27
Bubbly 14 - 46 22
Creamy 16 - 48 74
Iodine 41 - 70 27
INS 136 - 165 173
Lauric 5
Myristic 4
Palmitic 9
Stearic 52
Ricinoleic 13
Oleic 12
Linoleic 2
Linolenic 0
Is that ok for Stearic Acid to account for 46% of the batch ingredients? I tried to bump the Stearic up to the suggested 55 and so this is what I have now. Not sure that the rest of the numbers are what I am looking for either. I have seen a recipe where there was Lye and KOH being used and split about 70/40. soapcalc cannot account for that and not sure if its something I should try. Any thoughts?
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I find your recipe ok now Crazy8.
There is no need for all of us to make the exact same recipe.
The above one will give you for sure a shaving soap. Over time you will refine it.
I like the fact that you don't mention anything about clay. I really can't find any benefit although I 've made a couple of batches with bentonite and kaolin.
There is no need for all of us to make the exact same recipe.
The above one will give you for sure a shaving soap. Over time you will refine it.
I like the fact that you don't mention anything about clay. I really can't find any benefit although I 've made a couple of batches with bentonite and kaolin.
Crazy8
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Well I am going to add clay, after all I bought it just for this so I might as well try it right? lol Thank you very much Sapwn, yeah im not looking for the "this is the shaving soap recipe we should all use" but rather just some confirmation and ideas on what makes a shaving soap a shaving soap and different from a regular soap. I mean sure in my bathroom I know that difference but when it comes to making it, well that a whole different ball game. lol thanks for letting me know that I am on the right track with this now I greatly appreciate it.
Crazy8
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I just now read all of this. Thank you so very much for your input and giving this point of view. Science and I never got a long much though there are some parts that interest me a little. Just to give you a little insight I use a Merkur 34C HD and my brush is a Simpson "Colonel" Some of the shaving creams I use right now are D.R. Harris Arlington, Bigalow, Proraso, and Edwin Jagger. I do have a black Edwin Jagger bowl but have wanted to get a scuttle. I just haven't set my heart on one yet. You have a lot of great advice in here also. I will keep all of this in mind when making my shaving soap and hopefully it will lead to something quite wonderful.
Mark the Box Guy
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I do have a black Edwin Jagger bowl but have wanted to get a scuttle. I just haven't set my heart on one yet. You have a lot of great advice in here also. I will keep all of this in mind when making my shaving soap and hopefully it will lead to something quite wonderful.
I love my scuttle... nothing beats a hot lather shave on a cold British morning.
I also move between a single edge and a double edge depending on my mood, and though I'm really hooked on my MdC soap, I always have half a dozen others on the go.
Frankly, when I look at shave soap labels, I find that most of them use KOH and NaOH. It makes a softer soap that always makes a great lather. It's really a marketing decision more than anything. I don't mind fighting with a soap and learning what it wants in terms of water, heat or a brush. That's half the fun, to be honest.
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Crazy8
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I may have to get a Dirty Bird or a G20 Scuttle. Either one of those would be a beautiful addition to my den. I have seen someone do about a 40/60 mixture of NaOH to KOH respectively I think I may try that and see how it works out.
How do you calculate the amounts of the two types of lye? Do you have to add them to two separate batches of water before adding them to the oils, or can you mix them together? I just made a shaving soap that I really like and was wondering if I could make it harder so it would last longer. I was also thinking about adding a little SL.
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