Coconut oil and de-forestation?

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Soapy Gurl

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My friend's daughter has gone on a no palm lifestyle because of the orangutans. Even including foods with it in. She won't use soap with sustainable oil because they cut down the forest to make sustainable farms. She also wont use coconut oil because it comes from palm trees. I had never thought of this before. Is it not considered "bad" because they are grown like fruit? I use both coconut, palm and palm kernel in my soaps, so she doesn't want them.
 
Ask

your friends daughter if she has given up on her vehicle and walks everywhere. She also can't use biodiesel because that probably has palm oil in it. When she gives up on her vehicle and doesn't take the bus...then I would be a little more sympathetic to her cause. The same goes for all others who are worried about the orangutans.

Right about now we should be in an Ice Age. At least that is what was being touted back in the early seventies. Now it's global warming...except there is no definitive proof.

And don't get me started on coffee! For the longest time coffee wasn't good for you. Of course you had to drink 150 cups at one time...... But now, coffee is suppose to help against diabetes. Go figure.

Just my views. Change is good. But I'm tired of all the naysayers/dogooders who think we should go back to the stone age to be better people.
 
Soapy Gurl said:
She won't use soap with sustainable oil because they cut down the forest to make sustainable farms.

Well, if she's going to stop using anything that comes from a place that had to cut down a forest to build the farm, there's not much she can eat or use. Think of all the farms in America that are sitting where a forest used to be.

If we all stopped using palm oil, coconut oil, cocoa (because they cut down forests to plant it), etc., then what happens to the people that work the farms?

Anyway, about your question about coconut being not bad because it's grown like fruit. I have no idea, I don't think it's bad. But I don't think tallow is bad either.
 
I'll admit that there are some people who might carry things a bit too far at times or seem a bit misguided, BUT that being said I am VERY GLAD that there are still a few people out there who are concerned about our impact on the environment.
 
Coconut, palm oil, and babassu oil all come from palm trees but different species. I don't know if they occupy different ecological niches or if some are more sustainable than others. I haven't done the research.

If she's concerned, she should probably give up rubber too - that's notoriously difficult to grow and involves deforestation also.

But as one other poster aptly stated, all commercial agriculture required deforestation and loss of natural habitat for wildlife at some point. Small scale horticulture can be done in a mixed forest environment. But that's not where the vast majority of our soaping oils come from.

If you want to please your friend's daughter, make her some Castille soap, preferably from olives that are grown in the US.
 
I think we should start a rumor about orangutans and jojoba oil.... Maybe we can get the price down that way...

But if an outdated concern is keeping palm cheap (while I see coconut oil is on the rise) then I don't mind... Same with parabens, everyone believes the false stories to the point where companies are reformulating just to accomodate a fear that shouldnt exist... It's annoying, but the bright side is it has stayed consistant and affordable all these years... Imho.

And to follow what others said about no driving no rubber, etc..... Just imagine the babies with full bellies because their father has a job on the palm farms... Weigh it out however u wish and follow your heart and concious...
 
Well, you can't force a bar of coconut soap down somebody's throat.

Also we aren't going to settle the environmental debate on this forum.

But I do believe young people should have their opinions respected and encouraged to take responsibility for them. Along those lines, you could suggest that she finds her own oils and offer her guidance to start making her own soap.

And to follow what others said about no driving no rubber, etc..... Just imagine the babies with full bellies because their father has a job on the palm farms...

These are not valid arguments, because if we choose driving over the environment today, that choice will not exist in the near future or maybe for our children, where breathing will become a luxury for those who can afford oxygen bottles.
 
You r right, we won't settle it here, and I love people who love to seek facts... My quote seems slightly out of context when you dont include the rest, saying to follow your heart and conscience.... I remember one of the admins here explaining a few years ago how the people in that part of the country have work thanks to palm, I was actually thinking of her past comments when I mentioned the satified babies from homes with income..

If the powers that be can find a way to bottle air, they would! The same way they are buying out fresh water supplies, it makes me nervous that I may live long enough to see private companies selling water for $10 a gallon.

I choose palm over lard because I don't like the thought of an animal smarter than a dog going thru that.... I sounds like an idiot, but I choose to save the pigs over the poosibility that orangutans are losing their habitat... Again, follow your heart :)
 
I remember one of the admins here explaining a few years ago how the people in that part of the country have work thanks to palm.
And pig farm people have work thanks to the pigs.

And if there weren't any palms and any pigs, they had other work. Probably something else which damages the environment, because this is how our brain* is wired.

By that*, I don't mean destructive, but greedy :p
 
I still want to know about coconuts! I am trying to set her straight and find her some soap. I am afraid she will be really stinky by the time that castille cures. :) Everyone finds a cause to support and I am sure the internet makes it seem horrible. Yes it is, but there are horrible things closer to home to worry about. I am sure she will tire of how difficult the lifestyle is eventually.
 
She may enjoy reading these links.

http://www.orangutan.org.au/palm-oil

http://www.orangutans.com.au/Orangutans ... tives.aspx

http://www.specialchem4cosmetics.com/se ... =100060067

The last one, you must be member of to read all, so I am pasting here for you. I hope you find it enjoyable :)

Should we Boycott Palm Oil by Amanda Foxon-Hill - Oct 27, 2010

The topic of conversation around many a cosmetic manufacturer's water cooler is the issue of Palm Oil. The once green and natural solution for chemists wanting to avoid petroleum derived ingredients is starting to look a little less shiny. Rain forests are shrinking, diversity is being threatened and more of us are starting to question the wisdom of the green revolution. So what is the issue and what does the ethical chemist do next?

Palm oil originates from the seeds of the Elaesis Guineensis (oil palm) tree, a crop that is native to West Africa but has since been cultivated across much of South East Asia and South America. The global growth in palm oil farming is no coincidence as the crop is hardy, fast growing and offers a high yield of nutritionally rich oil.

The first press of the palm yields oil that is deep red in colour due to the high concentration of carotene, lycopene and vitamins. This is used across Asia and Africa for cooking where it provides the surrounding regions with their main source of calories. Little of this crude oil is sold outside of these markets as the deep colour is hard to work around and so it goes on for further processing.

"Share your Ideas and Comments about Palm Oil with your Peers in our Opinion Space!
Should We Boycott Palm Oil?"

The secondary refined process includes splitting out the vitamin E (tocopherol) which is sold separately and then fractionating (or splitting) the oily part into its many different fatty acids and Stearin - a natural triglyceride ester that is used in the manufacture of soap or further processed into the common cosmetic ingredient, glycerine. One of the reasons that palm oil has become such a main-stay of the 'natural' chemical industry is the fact that it provides such a wealth of ingredients withinasingle oil. So, in addition to palm oil the plant also provides starting materials for many other cosmetic basics including:

Fatty Acids Common chemical "children"
Palmitic Acid Retinyl Palmitate Isopropyl Palmitate Ethylhexyl Palmitate
Stearic Acid Sodium Stearate Glyceryl Stearate / distearate Cetostearyl Alcohol/ Cetearyl Alcohol
Myristic Acid Isopropyl Myristate Myristyl Alcohol Sodium Myristate
Linoleic Acid Gamma-linolenic acid - -
Glycerine > Polyglyceryl Esters > Caprylic Capric Triglyceride > Caprylyl Glycol


Looking at the above list really highlights the complexity of the 'let's boycott palm' issue and while it is true that not all of the above come from palm all of the time it is becoming more that way as brands move away from Petroleum derived chemicals in favour of 'green chemistry'. Today, the majority of the above materials are sourced from two main feed stocks, petroleum or plant. Of the plant derived the most common (but not the only) feedstock is Palm and chemically speaking, that is quite a smart move.

An estimated 150 million tonnes of Palm is produced each year and this figure is growing due to increased global demand for consumer goods and 'greener' technologies. Of that 150 million tonnes around 30 million goes on to make surfactants for a wide range of industries (that 30 million tonnes represents one quarter of the total feedstock used by the surfactants industry. Another quarter comes from other vegetable sources and half is petroleum derived). That ratio that is likely to tip further towards the green corner if the 'natural is better' market segment, keeps growing.

With the cosmetics industry likely to move further into the green corner we are faced with a few big issues of which the main one is sustainability. To find out how sustainable palm oil is we need to evaluate its efficiency as a cash crop. Time to review the oil return per hectare planted, natural limits to growth, education and land management.

Palm is not the only crop used in the chemical industry. In fact, the largest contributor to the oil pile is soyabean oil and the USA currently heads up the top producer chart (followed by Brazil and Argentina). Next is Palm and then we having Canola oil followed by Sunflower. Of all of these oils Palm with an average yield of 4 metric tonnes of oil per hectare is by far the best performer when it comes to yield and diversity of oil chemistry (by comparison, Soy gives an average yield of 1.4MT per hectare and canola between 1.5 - 2MT per hectare).

You could be forgiven for thinking that we have learned nothing about managing natural resources over the last fourty years. One look through the Club of Rome 1972 book, Limits to Growth, spells out the hard facts:

Growing population + One planet + Finite resources + Improved lifestyle = Crunch time.

The palm oil issue is a great example of how we can only have our cake and eat it if we are willing to accept the consequences. The palm oil issue has given formulators and brand owners the chance to feel the effects of land - change on a grand scale. Both the Indonesian and Malaysian governments have laws in place to insure that virgin forest is protected and not sacrificed for farming and this is comforting. However, these laws have proved difficult to enforce due to logistical and legal hurdles spanning different countries, cultures and motives. If palm oil is to become truly sustainable it will require a global solution - something that the round table on Palm oil sustainability is striving for.

So how can we help to turn the palm oil problem into a green solution? The concern surrounding the growth in palm oil plantations has not fallen on deaf ears and many of the biggest oil users including Unilever, NestleHaribo and Europastry have joined the Malaysian Government by establishing the round table for sustainable palm oil plantations. With over 400 members spanning all industry segments and geographies it looks likely that a global solution will be achieved.

The round table has been certifying 'sustainable' palm oil for a while now but prices remain high and traceability difficult. Palm crops are consolidated at wholesale merchants making it hard to separate out one farmers crop from another. However, as the demand for documentation grows so does the understanding of the marketplace and little by little, step by step progress is being made. It may take several years before many of the bi-products from palm oil distillation can be certified in marketable quantities with any confidence.

Many brands are opting out of palm as a feedstock and making marketing claims about being 'palm free'. While this action may make the companies involved and the public feel good the environmental reality is less positive. The coconut, a common palm replacement yields only half the oil of palm meaning that we will need double the land in the long run!

On a personal level we can all help to heighten the awareness of the benefits of using this oil over many other vegetable oils due to its higher yield and flexibility. We can also help by supporting the actions of the round table by paying that little bit extra at the counter for certified oil. However, it is with our formulating and our own consumption where we can have the greatest impact. Palm is a great case study in limits to growth and as such it provides us with the perfect opportunity to reflect on the efficiency of our formulations and the necessity of the products that we make.

Unless we start to place more value on our natural resources, the palm oil issue is likely to repeat time and time again as the world population continues to rise along with life style aspirations. We should be prepared not only to buy smart but to formulate smart, sell smart and think smart. Using less stuff may be the answer....

So, as we put on the lab coat and get ready to stir another pot of hope in a bottle let's take a moment to reflect on the big issue, evaluate our formulation objectives and take a stand against all of those people who want us to boycott palm in favour of something more ambiguous and less emotive.
 
Healinya - thank you for the information, I will pass it along. I found it very informative and helpful. If anyone asks me about palm, I will be better able to answer questions.
 
if the palm oil is sourced from somewhere other than indonesia/malaysia, then the orangutan argument becomes irrelevant. i don't use palm myself, but i believe it is also grown in africa and south america.

as for coconut oil, once again it can be sourced from other countries. i buy a coconut oil produced in fiji.

i understand that it is probably impossible to know where the palm or coconut oil comes from when you are buying a pre-made soap from a store, or a processed food product. but if you make a soap using palm and/or coconut oil obtained from countries other than indonesia or malaysia, i would think your friend's daughter should be ok with that.

i personally have avoided palm oil because of the orangutan issue, but i would have no problem with palm sourced from africa or south america.
 
Most of our palm oil here seems to come from Malaysia, probably because its so close. I doubt we would get any from Africa or South America because of the costs. I've found the CO from Fiji is not refined but have used it in soap and it comes out OK.
 
Relle9 said:
I've found the CO from Fiji is not refined but have used it in soap and it comes out OK.

no it is not refined, it is cold pressed/virgin oil, i use it in cooking as well as my soap.

do refined oils give a different or better result in soapmaking than virgin/extra virgin oils?
 
I still want to know about coconuts!
If you don't find a good answer, and are willing to put some effort into this research, find out from what country your coconuts are, then find some random internet forums based in that country and go - ask there.
 
Thank you, Healinya ... I am reading more about this myself.

I have been wanting to learn more about this,
as I read an article in National Geographic
last year and it made me want to know more.
So, today I did some more reading on this
topic, which I personally believe is very
worthwhile, as it surely makes me consider
certain recipes that call for palm oil ... if I can
replace that oil with another type of oil,
then I will. It's a bit tricky with steric acid,
but, at least I can minimize the palm usage.
I'm only one person, but if more people
care enough, it's what we all do in all those
little ways that can help in this world.
Simply minimizing the use of certain
ingredients does make a difference and
if more and more home crafters and
companies do it, then at least, if for
nothing else, it's a message that some
of us care, and, also, we ourselves know
that we tried in even a little way.

If we personally make these choices,
are we going to change the world?
Most likely not, but it's not about
trying to change the whole world,
it's about doing things that we feel
good about and not doing things
that we don't feel good about.

I don't feel good about promoting
the use of palm oil if another oil of
better or equal value, or, better yet,
using an oil that actually helps people
and habitats (I've more reading
to do about Babassu and Argan ...
but the purchase of some of these
oils help women in villages rather
than support damaging plantations.)

Yes, it is the biofuel industry that is
a major threat, but to me, this does
not mean that we should give up,
much less, help support the destruction.

[There are thousands of women and
their families living on the edge of
the Amazon jungle who rely on the
babassu palm for their livelihood.
(Known as “quebradeiras” ... "breakers"
as they collect and break the coconuts.)
The fruit is "starch-rich" and is also
used to produce flour, with the remainder
being used for animal feed and charcoal.]

Also, please, let's get real here ... rubber is
extracted from living trees. Palm plantations
are clear cutting healthy forests and setting
fires, which sometimes spread to other areas
of forest, where plants, animals, birds,
butterflies, insects, fish ... live. All being
resources for mankind in one way or
another. (Orangutans often die in the
flames ... trapped up in the forest canopy.)
Please, let's not say here that these
things don't matter.

I agree that an environmental discussion
may not do well here, but this is more
than that ... this is someone asking if
someone else's concern is valuable ...
YES, it is, IMO. By the way, a lot
of people walk to work ... I've done
it for years.

Just look at what one person can do!
Dr. Mary Galdikas ...
http://www.orangutan.org/dr-galdikas-bio

Today, the situation facing wild orangutans is far more
complicated than when Dr. Galdikas first began her studies.
As a result of poaching and habitat destruction, viable
orangutan populations are on the edge of extinction and
could be gone within the next 10 years. Understanding is
the first step to action. As President of OFI, Dr. Biruté Mary
Galdikas has studied orangutans longer than any other person
in human history and has worked ceaselessly to save orangutans
and forests, and to bring orangutans and their plight to the
attention of the world.

http://www.orangutan.org/born-to-be-wild-3d-imax-film

What is the movie about?
Born to be Wild 3D’ is an inspired story of love, dedication
and the remarkable bond between humans and animals.
This film documents orphaned orangutans and elephants
and the extraordinary people who rescue and raise them –
saving endangered species one life at a time. Stunningly
captured in IMAX 3D, ‘Born to be Wild 3D’ is a heartwarming
adventure transporting moviegoers into the lush rainforests
of Borneo with world-renowned primatologist
Dr. Birute Galdikas, and across the rugged Kenyan
savannah with celebrated elephant authority
Dame Daphne Sheldrick, as they and their team rescue,
rehabilitate and return these incredible animals back
to the wild. Exclusively in IMAX theatres.

________

Also of note:
http://www.redapes.org
http://wwf.panda.org/about_our_earth/ab ... _palm_oil/
"The palm oil industry, which is causing clear-cutting of
forests, forest fires, and also facilitates greater access for
hunters and traders, is one of the most important factors
for the dramatic reduction of orangutan populations."

http://news.mongabay.com/2009/0601-oran ... w_cop.html

"Ninety percent of the world’s palm oil exports come from
the oil palm plantations of Malaysia and Indonesia. Most of
these plantations are on the islands of Borneo and Sumatra.
The same lowland forest that the oil palm industry favors for
conversion to palm plantations is the only remaining habitat
of the orangutan."

"New evidence shows that orangutan rescue centers in Indonesia
are over-flowing with orphaned baby orangutans rescued from
forests being cleared to make way for oil palm plantations."

http://www.organicconsumers.org/Politic ... 100305.cfm
http://www.rainforestrescue.org.au/ourp ... lmoil.html


~~~~~~~~~~~~

If you also do some reading, you may feel
the way I have come to feel ... there has to
be better choices for the products I make ...
as I don't choose to be much of a part of
this ... can't help it in some areas, but if I can
minimize it in any possible way, I will.

Kathy
 
birdcharm said:


Also, please, let's get real here ... rubber is
extracted from living trees.


Yes, but historically mixed tropical forests have been razed to plant rubber plantations, often with disastrous ecological consequences. This was done in Malaysia in the early 20th century on a wide scale. It was done in Brazil beginning in the 1920s-30s as well and was a dismal environmental and commercial failure due to diseases that were more easily transmissible on a monocrop plantation than when the trees are dispersed in a mixed forest.

It's not particularly profitable to tap rubber trees in the wild. People do it but they are typically impoverished and exploited by middlemen.

This isn't to say that palm cultivation does not have ecological consequences - of course it does, even in areas that supposedly have made a commitment to "sustainable" production.

By definition, most of our raw materials have negative impacts on ecosystems. We all draw our own boundaries regarding what is acceptable. I, for one, after reading about how pigs are raised, can't bring myself to use lard. However, good arguments can be made for using lard as a substitute for palm as it is "locally sourced."
 
Hi Judy,

Your point is well taken, thank you.

Afterall, any plantation is going to have
negative impacts.

I guess I was mostly thinking back to the
comment of, "If she's concerned, she
should probably give up rubber too ..." ...
I agree with the feel of this post, but
this particular statement threw me off
just a bit, as I believe the main concern
of the person worried about the palm
oil is the impact on orangutans, so to
mix palm oil and rubber is two different
subjects, although, yes, there is the
similarity of destruction ... as you say,
"with any raw materials" ... although
there are some raw materials that are
grown with resources in mind and, if
we're lucky, preservation and renewed
resources, as well.

And, I was under the impression that
some rubber was harvested from native
trees, but overall, I suppose this is not
the case. I heard once that the use
of some rubber and latex products benefited
the regions as it meant better economy
and less destructive habits locally, but
I never read an in-depth articles on it.

Thanks,
Kathy
 
By definition, most of our raw materials have negative impacts on ecosystems. We all draw our own boundaries regarding what is acceptable

Very true, and make decisions based on the best information we have available - which is why I found this thread a very interesting read. I bought palm oil when I first started making soap after seeing it in a lot of recipes and without realising it's environmental cost. Since then a few of my friends have specifically asked for soaps without palm because of how unsustainable it is and I have done a lot more reading on it. Personally I plan to use what I have left but not to get any more.

I was reading a bit on coconut oil production in the Philippines and thought forum members may find the this article interesting: http://youronevoicecanmakeadifference.w ... education/
 
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