Coconut Milk and DOS

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Stacyspy

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There are a couple threads floating around, but I didn't want to hijack them...
In a few of the soaps I made last summer, I've noticed a small amount of DOS. After going back to my notes, I see I used canned CM. I don't have it available in boxed form here, so I didn't think of it then.
All my soaps have been made and stored the same way, made with the same equipment and the soaps of the same recipe made with water don't have DOS. Could the CM have trace amounts of metal from the can? Enough to cause DOS? Or am I missing something else?
 

shunt2011

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I've been using canned CM for years and have not had any DOS. I wonder if ones recipe with CM could make it more susceptible
 

topofmurrayhill

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There are a couple threads floating around, but I didn't want to hijack them...
In a few of the soaps I made last summer, I've noticed a small amount of DOS. After going back to my notes, I see I used canned CM. I don't have it available in boxed form here, so I didn't think of it then.
All my soaps have been made and stored the same way, made with the same equipment and the soaps of the same recipe made with water don't have DOS. Could the CM have trace amounts of metal from the can? Enough to cause DOS? Or am I missing something else?
Considering that EDTA alone can be pretty effective at staving off DOS, it seems that metals are often involved. I suppose it's a possibility any time you add an ingredient that something undesirable could accompany it. Metal could come from the can or the processing equipment or simply from the ground the coconut grew from. I think when adding botanicals and other ingredients besides distilled water and oil, it becomes more advisable to include stabilizers. EDTA and sodium citrate help to chelate metals, and ROE is a great natural antioxidant -- but don't use it with the citrate.

While you can't go wrong with EDTA and ROE, it's important to consider your selection of oils too.
 
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snappyllama

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I use canned coconut milk without problems.

I'm wondering... If your recipe checks out as being a low DOS candidate, could your can opener be causing it? We replaced our ancient one not too long ago when I noticed that the worn blade was slivering off teeny bits of metal from the can itself. The pieces were incredibly tiny. I wouldn't have noticed them except my nephew was testing out a flashlight and happened to catch glints on top of the top of cream of chicken soup I'd just opened (don't judge, I'm from the south and we make casseroles just like our grannies did). Anyway, it looked like metallic powdered black pepper.
 

cmzaha

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I use canned coconut cream quite often with no problems, although I usually use a carton coconut milk from Costco. Just curious, does your recipe contain lard? I happen to be one of few that has problems with dos when using lard until I started in adding more bht to it
 

Stacyspy

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Yep, I sure do use lard... my basic recipe is just lard, CO, OO and castor. I use a church key to open mine, so I suppose that as I poke the holes in it, it could be putting little bits in there. And I use enough cream of chicken and cream of mushroom soups that I buy them by the case...lol

I use canned coconut milk without problems.

I'm wondering... If your recipe checks out as being a low DOS candidate, could your can opener be causing it? We replaced our ancient one not too long ago when I noticed that the worn blade was slivering off teeny bits of metal from the can itself. The pieces were incredibly tiny. I wouldn't have noticed them except my nephew was testing out a flashlight and happened to catch glints on top of the top of cream of chicken soup I'd just opened (don't judge, I'm from the south and we make casseroles just like our grannies did). Anyway, it looked like metallic powdered black pepper.
Yes, I use lard. I have some bht ordered, so I'll give it a shot and see what's what.


I use canned coconut cream quite often with no problems, although I usually use a carton coconut milk from Costco. Just curious, does your recipe contain lard? I happen to be one of few that has problems with dos when using lard until I started in adding more bht to it
 
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dibbles

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EDTA and sodium citrate help to chelate metals, and ROE is a great natural antioxidant -- but don't use it with the citrate
Why would you not use sodium citrate and ROE together? Do you mean ROE as a stand alone additive, or also oils that have a small amount of ROE added to the bottle as a preservative?
 

topofmurrayhill

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Why would you not use sodium citrate and ROE together? Do you mean ROE as a stand alone additive, or also oils that have a small amount of ROE added to the bottle as a preservative?
Chelators and antioxidants can work synergistically. However, in the only test I know of, ROE and sodium citrate performed worse together than individually.

ROE can be added to each batch of soap. It works even better in combination with EDTA. Some people add it to their bulk liquid oils.
 

dibbles

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Chelators and antioxidants can work synergistically. However, in the only test I know of, ROE and sodium citrate performed worse together than individually.

ROE can be added to each batch of soap. It works even better in combination with EDTA. Some people add it to their bulk liquid oils.
Thanks for the response. I am asking because I only just got some ROE, which I was planning to, but haven't yet, add to oils that I don't go through quickly, or those with a shorter shelf life. Used this way, do you think it is still ill advised to use those ROE preserved oils in combination with sodium citrate? The amount of ROE would be so small.
 

topofmurrayhill

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Thanks for the response. I am asking because I only just got some ROE, which I was planning to, but haven't yet, add to oils that I don't go through quickly, or those with a shorter shelf life. Used this way, do you think it is still ill advised to use those ROE preserved oils in combination with sodium citrate? The amount of ROE would be so small.
I don't know exactly what scenario you have in mind, but I could guess that maybe you are using sodium citrate at a relatively high rate to counteract hard water, and you are mainly interested in ROE to protect your bulk liquid oils. I don't see any problem with that. If you are only using sodium citrate in small amounts as a stabilizer, it might not be good because as far as we know the citrate and the ROE possibly interfere with each other.

For what it's worth, using both an antioxidant and a chelator in adequate quantities in your soap batches is extremely effective in protecting the stability of the product. We know that ROE and EDTA play well together, so that would be the ideal combination. EDTA can be used at a 0.1% rate simply as a stabilizer, or it can be used in higher amounts to help counteract hard water.
 

dibbles

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I don't know exactly what scenario you have in mind, but I could guess that maybe you are using sodium citrate at a relatively high rate to counteract hard water, and you are mainly interested in ROE to protect your bulk liquid oils. I don't see any problem with that. If you are only using sodium citrate in small amounts as a stabilizer, it might not be good because as far as we know the citrate and the ROE possibly interfere with each other.

For what it's worth, using both an antioxidant and a chelator in adequate quantities in your soap batches is extremely effective in protecting the stability of the product. We know that ROE and EDTA play well together, so that would be the ideal combination. EDTA can be used at a 0.1% rate simply as a stabilizer, or it can be used in higher amounts to help counteract hard water.
That's the scenario. I don't have hard water, but quite a few of the people I give my soap to do, so I have been using sodium citrate as a chelator. When that is gone, I will try EDTA. Thank you for your insight.
 

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