Very young castile, no snot yet

[traderbren]

I have a 5 month old Castile. I poured it into my dragonfly round guest soap mold, and had enough left over for very small squares in a silicone mold. I've been testing the squares since 8 weeks. (They were ruined anyway from Mr. Soapmouse.) While the lather is non-existent at this point, I have no snot. I used whatever the cheapest Olive Oil was in a big can at the time, and I have hard water. (I didn't use distilled for that batch.) I'm very curious to read from other soapers about their castiles.

 

[DeeAnna]

"...I have no idea why it doesn't snot like other folks' castiles do..."

I can offer a good idea to consider. Olive oil adulteration is very, very common. It's entirely possible that a not-slimy castile isn't slimy because it isn't really a 100% pure olive oil soap. A recent "60 Minutes" television show on food adulteration reported about 50% of all olive oil sold in Italy is adulterated and about 75% in the US is adulterated.

Some adulteration in the industry consists of making a substandard OO smell and taste like a higher quality OO, but a disturbingly large amount of adulteration consists of turning another kind of oil into something that smells, looks, and tastes like OO. In the 60 Minutes show, an officer in the Italian food quality enforcement arm of the government showed how very easy it is to add a bit of chlorophyll extract to a flavorless oil such as sunflower to make an "olive oil" that only an expert taster can tell apart from real olive.

If you are buying a "house brand" OO or a widely sold brand (Bertolli, Pompeian, etc.) it is very likely to be adulterated, and it's anybody's guess what your soap really is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olive_oil_regulation_and_adulteration
http://smallbites.andybellatti.com/the-ultimate-olive-oil-guide/
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2007/08/13/slippery-business

 

[Susie]

I don't doubt for a second that all the OO I buy is adulterated. That is why I buy one brand and stick with it. So, at least I am dealing with the same amount of adulteration every time.

However, I would also be interested in whether snotty castiles are more common in high humidity areas. My one attempt at a castile is over 2 years old and still very snotty.

 

[DeeAnna]

It's possible to make a non-olive soap that makes goo like a castile, so it's actually not the fact that the soap is made specifically from olive oil -- it's really all about the oleic acid content in the soap in proportion to other fatty acids.

If a soap with a low to moderate amount of oleic acid absorbs water, as happens when a soap sits in a wet soap dish or when a soap is used for washing, the soap typically forms a loose mush or a liquidy solution, depending on the amount of water absorbed.

A soap with a high % of oleic acid has the unique property of absorbing water very quickly, but rather than forming a loose mush or liquid solution, it instead forms a thick Jello-like gel, and it can form this gel over an unusually wide range of water content. That's what gives a castile bar soap its slime or snot or lotiony lather, depending on your perspective, and that's why a liquid soap with a high oleic acid content dilutes easily to a nice honey-like thickness.

Enough non-oleic fatty acids (and other additives) in a soap interfere with that oleic gel formation, so the soap made with a blend of fats is less likely to form that characteristic oleic acid gel. That's why bastiles and other soap recipes with a moderate oleic acid content don't make the oleic goo, but castiles or soaps with a fatty acid profile similar to castile do get the goo.

 

[galaxyMLP]

Here are my castile experiments and results. Please understand that this is personal experience:

This was a direct comparison of a 9 month old to a 1 month old castile with the same recipe.

1 month old: I wet the bar and there was almost no snot at first, and no lather either. After rubbing for a minute, the bar got "slimy" but I didnt have significant lather. I scraped a bit of the slime on my hands and added water. POOF! Lather abound!

9 month old: took a bit to get it going but it started lathering up pretty soon. After I kept rubbing it though, same thing happened as with the 1 month and it started getting slimy. I added more water and I was able to get a nice lather going again.

1 day later I tried both bars again. They acted almost identically. Here is my thought/ explanation.

Older bars are drier and more brittle. Because castile has such a wide range in which it makes that gel and slime, it takes months for it to feel like it doesn't have that sliminess anymore. However, once you introduce water back into the bar, it will create slime if you give it enough time. Putting down the soap bar and adding more water will break that gel level and you finally get lather. This is likely why people get good lather with bath poofs but not with the bar itself. The ratio of soap:water on a bath pouf is muuuch lower than it will be on the surface of a bar. This breaks that gel phase so you can produce lather.

I let that 9 month old bar sit in a non-well draining soap dish and it literally tuned to goo around it after 2 days. I see why people let their bars cure for a long time but to me it really doesn't make a difference because I'll still get that snot if I accidentally let it sit in water too long or lather it up longer that I should where the water will permeate that outer layer. Plus, the sliminess doesn't bother me.

I bet that the soap molecules formed from oleic acid coordinate well with each other with many different amount of water present so it sort of congeals instead of separating and lathering like most salts of fatty acids.

I also think that older bars are harder so they don't let go of as much soap when they are first introduced to water. For castile soaps, that is critical. You don't want to get a lot of soap off of it. Otherwise you'll get that gel. When I use my castiles, I wet them and rub for a few seconds and put down the bar. Then I add water back to my hands or body and I get that lather that everyone is searching for.

I also noticed that the gel has a "brainy" look if you let the bar soap sit in water and flip it over. My guess is that you are getting the oleic acid salts to gel but the other fatty acids don't so you get this "brainy" and mottled look. Its where you have spots of the bar that are hard and not gel like at all surrounded by the gel soap. I'll try to see if I can get a picture of it at home.

 

[IrishLass]

I see why people let their bars cure for a long time but to me it really doesn't make a difference because I'll still get that snot if I accidentally let it sit in water too long or lather it up longer that I should where the water will permeate that outer layer.

I hear ya. It doesn't make any difference with mine either. My Castile's as old as 4 years still slime up, only it doesn't take as much time or water to do it as it seems to take for yours. The sliming happens so quick on mine that sometimes I think that if I just walk up to a dry bar and merely whisper the word "water" over it, that it will turn into instant colloidal jelly faster than I could say, 'Boo, gotcha!'!

For what it's worth, the only olive oil I've ever used in my soaps is Costo's Kirkland Pure Olive Oil (i.e., not the virgin-type).

Also- Susie was wondering whether or not high humidity might have anything to do with it.... If my local climate is anything to go by, the answer to that is a big 'No!' I live in a very arid climate where it's as rare as hen's teeth for the humidity to go much above 36% more than a few weeks out of an entire year.


IrishLass

 

[Arthur Dent]

Deeanna, thanks for those links. The second one won't work for me at the moment, I'll try it again later.
I imagine that you have hit the nail on the head... indeed, someone else also proposed the same solution to me in a PM very recently.
How depressing, since there is no telling what oils we are actually getting, and no telling what mixture we will get in future batches of the same brand. I suppose that what many of us make and fondly call castile is best instead called "mystery soap".

 

[JayJay]

I hear ya. It doesn't make any difference with mine either. My Castile's as old as 4 years still slime up, only it doesn't take as much time or water to do it as it seems to take for yours. The sliming happens so quick on mine that sometimes I think that if I just walk up to a dry bar and merely whisper the word "water" over it, that it will turn into instant colloidal jelly faster than I could say, 'Boo, gotcha!'!

For what it's worth, the only olive oil I've ever used in my soaps is Costo's Kirkland Pure Olive Oil (i.e., not the virgin-type).

Also- Susie was wondering whether or not high humidity might have anything to do with it.... If my local climate is anything to go by, the answer to that is a big 'No!' I live in a very arid climate where it's as rare as hen's teeth for the humidity to go much above 36% more than a few weeks out of an entire year.


IrishLass

I make my Castile from the exact same oil. I am using an approximately 8 week old bar in the shower now and I love it. It isn't particularly snotty. I do have hard water.

 

[DeeAnna]

On the subject of humidity, at the moment I'm visiting friends who retired to the lovely tropical island of Caye Caulker, Belize. Their guest cottage faces the open Caribbean Sea, so the humidity is always high and there is often salt spray in the air.

I always take some of my homemade soap with me, not only because I'm spoiled about bathing with my own soap, but I'm also curious to see how the soap behaves in such a different climate. I'd have to reformulate my recipes to be less soluble if I were to live here permanently. The water is very soft ... mostly rainwater ... so solubility is not as critical as when the water is harder.

My soap, which stays firm even in a humid Iowa summer, gets somewhat softer and stays that way in Belize because soap can never quite dry out between uses in this climate.

I didn't think to bring a castile with me, but I'm pretty sure it would not be a pretty picture if I had!

 

[JayJay]

On the subject of humidity, at the moment I'm visiting friends who retired to the lovely tropical island of Caye Caulker, Belize. Their guest cottage faces the open Caribbean Sea, so the humidity is always high and there is often salt spray in the air.

I always take some of my homemade soap with me, not only because I'm spoiled about bathing with my own soap, but I'm also curious to see how the soap behaves in such a different climate. I'd have to reformulate my recipes to be less soluble if I were to live here permanently. The water is very soft ... mostly rainwater ... so solubility is not as critical as when the water is harder.

My soap, which stays firm even in a humid Iowa summer, gets somewhat softer and stays that way in Belize because soap can never quite dry out between uses in this climate.

I didn't think to bring a castile with me, but I'm pretty sure it would not be a pretty picture if I had!

I am sitting in the cold mid west right now.... VERY jealous of you.

Enjoy your time. It founds fantastic!

 

[DeeAnna]

Thanks, JayJay. We save up all year for this treat, and I'm making the most of it.

To keep this soap related, most of the bars I brought with me are scented with mint in various blends. Mint is really nice in the warmth and high humidity. Refreshing!