some terms i don't understand!

[Lottee]

I keep reading of lye discount and water discount. There is an explanation of lye discount in one of my books but i really don't get it (not a very good explanation......)

Also, the recipe i have used so far has been very simple. Is there a reason to change unless i fancy something different?

Waat exactly is superfattibg and why? How do you work out the percentage?

Thanks from a complete newbie!

 

[lsg]

Lye discount and superfat are the same thing. "Superfatting is either adding an extra amount of oil into your soap recipe but keeping the lye amount the same, or using the same amount of oil and less lye. Superfatting is adding in more oil than is required to have a complete 1:1 reaction with the lye in a batch of cold process soap."
Superfatting makes the soap less harsh and gives you a margin for error. I use SoapCalc and you can set the amount of superfat that you want for each batch of soap.
Source: http://candleandsoap.about.com/od/coldprocesssoapmaking/g/glsuperfat.htm


http://www.soapnuts.com/tips2.html

 

[Relle]

Here is the link to soapcalc, have a look at the FAQ's page to help you. There is no need to change your recipe if your happy with it. All your recipes should be run through a soap calc to make sure you have the right lye amounts, some of the books tell you that.

http://www.soapcalc.net/

 

[SoapAddict415]

I've only been soaping since May but I believe a lye discount & a water discount are the same thing, a reduction in the amount of water used. I think its supposed to cut down on the cure time because there is les water to evaporate. I hope someone with more experience will correct me if I'm wrong on either term. Superfatting refers to the amount of oil/butter not bound to the lye. It adds more moisture to the soap & acts as a safety net in case you accidentally add to much lye. Soapcalc automatically calculates a 5% superfat but you can change it to whatever amount you want.

 

[lsg]

I don't believe that water discount and lye discount are the same. Lye discount is where you use less lye than is needed to fully saponify all of the oils. Water discount is using less water than the recipe calls for.

 

[new12soap]

Lye discount and superfat are used pretty much interchangeably. What it means is that if I have say 1000 grams of oils, and I wanted a superfat (or lye discount) of 5%, I would only add in enough lye to saponify (turn the oil to soap) 950 grams of oil. The lye calculators figure out the correct amount for your oils based on the types of oils you are using, the amounts, and what superfat % you put in. The reasons to superfat are many; to give you a margin for any slight errors or differences in a home scale, to cover the "average" amounts of lye needed to saponify your oils, to make the soap more conditioning and combat any drying effects, etc. Having too little or no superfat means you run the risk of a lye heavy soap that will zap and could potentially be dangerous. Too much superfat means less soap more oil in the bar, which cuts down on lather and could lead to rancidity.

A water discount is totally different. Lye has to be mixed with water in order to saponify oils and make soap. Some calculators give you a water amount to use based on the percentage of your oils, but most calculators and most soapers use a lye to water ratio. A 33% lye solution refers to the strength of your lye and water solution, one third lye, two thirds water. That is considered a "slight" water discount, whereas a 40% solution is much stronger, and a 50% solution (half lye, half water) is about as strong as you can get because you have to have enough water to actually dissolve all the lye. DO NOT ATTEMPT TO USE A 50% LYE SOLUTION UNLESS YOU ARE A VERY EXPERIENCED ADVANCED SOAPER! Most beggining soapers should always use a full water amount. It is the safest (although you should always handle your lye solution carefully!) and the easiest to work with. More experienced soapers will sometimes use a water discount to speed up trace, such as in high olive oil soaps, and cure time (less water to evaporate).

If you have a recipe you like then there is no reason to change it! Sometimes the simplest soaps are the best. But you must always always ALWAYS run any recipe you are using through a lye calculator, ALWAYS. Some of them are just plain wrong, others can contain simple errors or typos, but always better to check and be safe rather than be sorry!

 

[Lottee]

Wow thanks for your responses! Particularly new12soap, i really feel that i understand the whole concept a lot more. Have not yet had a chance to look at soap calc but i will this week, looking forward to experimenting with r. Thanks again.

 

[IrishLass]

I personally hate the generic term 'water discount' because it means different things to different people and can cause all kinds of confusion as a result. I don't have much to add to what has already been said, but here is an excellent, informative link to Roxanne Shirvan's info on 'water discounting' that I've found to be extremely helpful in understanding water calculations in CP, and why calculating the water amount based on the lye amount instead of the oil amount is a much better way to go (it's 5 pages long, but it's a very well-written and easy-to-understand read):

http://www.rivercitysoaps.com/dwcp/dwcp.pdf


IrishLass

 

[new12soap]

Thanks for the link IrishLass! Yes, I hate terms like "a 30% water discount" too because I don't know what it means when someone says that. It is much more accurated IMO to work with lye concentration

Lottee you are very welcome

 

[Fran2]

I personally hate the generic term 'water discount' because it means different things to different people and can cause all kinds of confusion as a result. I don't have much to add to what has already been said, but here is an excellent, informative link to Roxanne Shirvan's info on 'water discounting' that I've found to be extremely helpful in understanding water calculations in CP, and why calculating the water amount based on the lye amount instead of the oil amount is a much better way to go (it's 5 pages long, but it's a very well-written and easy-to-understand read):

http://www.rivercitysoaps.com/dwcp/dwcp.pdf


IrishLass

Great article and information, as a new soaper, I find that my bars are losing so much water and shrinking too much, so I cannot get an accurate weight, and they do take longer to get out of mold and cure. I was reading the article that IrishLass recommended. I wanted just to try this out, please let me know if I calculated right.

My Olive Oil Soap, and I used Soapcalc to figure water and lye.

52 ozs./1502.524 grams of Olive Oil
Water: 20.14 ozs/570.959
Lye: 5.749 ozs/191.337
Superfat: 6%

The above recipe according to Soapcalc is: lye to water ratio that is 40.8% solution?

River City Soaps calcuation:

Following directions from article from River I did: lye weight x 1.50 = water for a 40% solution
Math: 6.749 (lye) x 1.50 = 10.1235 (water)

Is this correct? Big difference in water amount. So looking at my recipe that was run through the Soapcalc I used too little lye and way too much water, is that correct.

Thank you all in advance for all your help to us Newbies...

 

[IrishLass]

I wanted just to try this out, please let me know if I calculated right.

My Olive Oil Soap, and I used Soapcalc to figure water and lye.

52 ozs./1502.524 grams of Olive Oil
Water: 20.14 ozs/570.959
Lye: 5.749 ozs/191.337
Superfat: 6%

The above recipe according to Soapcalc is: lye to water ratio that is 40.8% solution?

Hmmm...I actually get a 25.1% lye solution for the above water figures on SoapCalc. If you got 40.8% for the above water amount, you may need to refresh the SoapCalc page or hit Control+F5 on your computer to update the page (or Command+R if you have a Mac). Also- your lye amount in ounces above is off by 1, which may be a simple typo on your part. For a 6% superfat I get 6.749 oz of lye on SoapCalc for the above recipe (instead of 5.749). The grams part is correct, though.

River City Soaps calcuation:

Following directions from article from River I did: lye weight x 1.50 = water for a 40% solution
Math: 6.749 (lye) x 1.50 = 10.1235 (water)

Is this correct?

Yes, that is correct, and it is the same amount that SoapCalc gives for a 40% lye solution/concentration as well when I type 40 into the lye concentration box. (Were you able to refresh and get it to work for you?)

Big difference in water amount. So looking at my recipe that was run through the Soapcalc I used too little lye and way too much water, is that correct.

Thank you all in advance for all your help to us Newbies...

Yes- big difference. The lye amount is actually the same, though (taking into account that 1 point typo), but the water amount was drastically too much. You'll love using a 40% lye solution with your 100% OO soap so much better. Bear in mind that it will trace faster than the 'full water' amount you were using before, but to me that's one of the nice advantages of using less water. Just avoid using a fast accelerating or seizing FO with it, though, and you'll be fine.


IrishLass

 

[new12soap]

Fran, on soapcalc, did you enter 40.8% in the box for lye concentration, or did you enter that into water as a percent of oils?

On soapcalc, in step 3, the default is water as a % of oils, and it is set to 38. You have to click the bubble next to lye concentration, then enter your 40% (or whatever you want) there.

There is as you noted a HUGE difference between a "full" water amount in a castille (all olive oil) soap and using a 40% lye solution. If you are a beginner you may want to start out somewhere in between the two and opt for, say a 33-35% solution just until you know how differently it behaves. JM2C.

 

[Fran2]

I wanted just to try this out, please let me know if I calculated right.

My Olive Oil Soap, and I used Soapcalc to figure water and lye.

52 ozs./1502.524 grams of Olive Oil
Water: 20.14 ozs/570.959
Lye: 5.749 ozs/191.337
Superfat: 6%

The above recipe according to Soapcalc is: lye to water ratio that is 40.8% solution?

Hmmm...I actually get a 25.1% lye solution for the above water figures on SoapCalc. If you got 40.8% for the above water amount, you may need to refresh the SoapCalc page or hit Control+F5 on your computer to update the page (or Command+R if you have a Mac). Also- your lye amount in ounces above is off by 1, which may be a simple typo on your part. For a 6% superfat I get 6.749 oz of lye on SoapCalc for the above recipe (instead of 5.749). The grams part is correct, though.

This soap is already made, sigh...I had made a typo, the lye was 6.79, and I did not realize I needed to put into the soapcalc "lye concentraion amount"

River City Soaps calcuation:

Following directions from article from River I did: lye weight x 1.50 = water for a 40% solution
Math: 6.749 (lye) x 1.50 = 10.1235 (water)

Is this correct?

Yes, that is correct, and it is the same amount that SoapCalc gives for a 40% lye solution/concentration as well when I type 40 into the lye concentration box. (Were you able to refresh and get it to work for you?)[quote:xx0xdk0y]Yes, when I put 40% it give me the right calculation, so at least I know that I followed the directitons correctly as per lye and water concentration

Big difference in water amount. So looking at my recipe that was run through the Soapcalc I used too little lye and way too much water, is that correct.

Thank you all in advance for all your help to us Newbies...

Yes- big difference. The lye amount is actually the same, though (taking into account that 1 point typo), but the water amount was drastically too much. You'll love using a 40% lye solution with your 100% OO soap so much better. Bear in mind that it will trace faster than the 'full water' amount you were using before, but to me that's one of the nice advantages of using less water. Just avoid using a fast accelerating or seizing FO with it, though, and you'll be fine.

I realize now when I use this soap, it is way too oily took months to cure, and is a bite gloppy when wet. I don't use fragrance with OO soap, and many, many thanks to you. So I can use the soapcalc, but just use the Lye Concentration box, I don't have do the math.

It is so nice of you to answer me, thank you so much

IrishLass [/quote:xx0xdk0y]

 

[Fran2]

Fran, on soapcalc, did you enter 40.8% in the box for lye concentration, or did you enter that into water as a percent of oils?

On soapcalc, in step 3, the default is water as a % of oils, and it is set to 38. You have to click the bubble next to lye concentration, then enter your 40% (or whatever you want) there.

There is as you noted a HUGE difference between a "full" water amount in a castille (all olive oil) soap and using a 40% lye solution. If you are a beginner you may want to start out somewhere in between the two and opt for, say a 33-35% solution just until you know how differently it behaves. JM2C.

New12soap, thank you, I did not enter 40.8% in the box for ly concentration, I had left it as percent of oils. I just was browsing the forum, and reading this post about water discount, and realized that was probably my problem for the OO soap, the gloppyness when wet, and you can smell the OO coming through, towards coming to the end of the bar after using, I see actual oil seeping out from the bar. So thank you for the recommendation. I have done about 12 batches of soap, with 2 failed Salt soap, and one loaf that did not gel. Can I do 35% lye solution for all my soaps? I would like to not have so much water, so I can get a more accurate weight amount when cutting soap. I have two bars testing right now with using the "water percent as oils", but I want to change to "lye concentration"

Is there times when you want to use full water, and what percent is full water?

I do realize though after reading article, using milk, honey or fragrance will have a different result, just finding out that result is the problem, LOL.

But thank you for your help, I really appreciate it.