Repeated False Trace

[Melissa Torre]

Hello all! Thanks for having me! So, little background,I’m a chef, and have been soaping professionally for about three years now...I have never (other than some sweating) had a problem with production until now...for the past few months every batch of soap false traces! It happens as soon as the lye water hits the oils (70%tallow/15%olive/15%coconut). It’s the same recipe I’ve been using for years. I’ve tried soaping hotter (I’ve ranged from 90• To 145•), I bought new lye, new oils...does anyone have a clue? I’m baffled and am at my wits end! Any suggestions are greatly appreciated!!

 

[Lin19687]

How long do you SB ?
Have you tried to SB longer to make sure that it is fully traced?
How many batches has this happened to ?

 

[DeeAnna]

How do you know it's "false trace" rather than normal trace?

People measure the temps of the fats and of the lye solution, but the real key is the temp of the combined soap batter. Is the batter temperature above the melting temperature of your fats?

Does this "false trace" disappear as the soap batter starts to warm up from saponification? Or does the soap batter just continue to thicken?

You say it happens right when the fats are combined with the lye solution. By this, do you mean it happens after you start to stick blend or do you literally mean immediately when you pour one into the other?

You say you purchased new fats, but are you purchasing the same brands or have you tried different brands? I'm focusing especially on the tallow, since it's such a large part of your recipe, but my question also applies to the other fats.

Have you tried making a small test batch of soap using just one fat to see if you can determine if a given fat is the issue?

I take it you don't use fragrance or any other additives?

 

[lsg]

There is a lot of tallow in your recipe, but if it worked before there must be something else going on. Are you using a different fragrance or essential oil? Are you using the preset water amount or a water discount? SoapCalc is set at 38% water. I usually just go with that. Is the lye water about the same temp as the oisl/fats? Those are the things I come up with. Hope this helps.

 

[Melissa Torre]

How long do you SB ?
Have you tried to SB longer to make sure that it is fully traced?
How many batches has this happened to ?

It’s happened to 10-12 batches, and it happens as soon as I pour the lye water into the oils. I work in 20# batches, so trying to SB that when it’s already so thick isn’t working so well.

How do you know it's "false trace" rather than normal trace?

People measure the temps of the fats and of the lye solution, but the real key is the temp of the combined soap batter. Is the batter temperature above the melting temperature of your fats?

Does this "false trace" disappear as the soap batter starts to warm up from saponification? Or does the soap batter just continue to thicken?

You say it happens right when the fats are combined with the lye solution. By this, do you mean it happens after you start to stick blend or do you literally mean immediately when you pour one into the other?

You say you purchased new fats, but are you purchasing the same brands or have you tried different brands? I'm focusing especially on the tallow, since it's such a large part of your recipe, but my question also applies to the other fats.

Have you tried making a small test batch of soap using just one fat to see if you can determine if a given fat is the issue?

I take it you don't use fragrance or any other additives?

I have tried at multiple temps, with the combined batter anywhere from 100 to 140 degrees, well above the melting points.

It is happening literally the second I start to pour the lye water into the oils. SB just accelerates it.

I have tried new brands of everything except the coconut oil, of which I tried both the 92 and 76 from bulk apothecary.

I was going to try a test batch omitting the coconut oil today! Hopefully that’s the culprit.

This issue is happening well before I add any eo or anything else...it’s just lye, water. Tallow, Olive, coconut.

I’ve made this recipe literally hundreds of times with never a problem...it’s so baffling!

There is a lot of tallow in your recipe, but if it worked before there must be something else going on. Are you using a different fragrance or essential oil? Are you using the preset water amount or a water discount? SoapCalc is set at 38% water. I usually just go with that. Is the lye water about the same temp as the oisl/fats? Those are the things I come up with. Hope this helps.

Yes it is tallow high, but I’ve used this recipe literally hundreds of times before and never had an issue. I only use eo, and this is happening before any of those get added. I do a slight water discount, but same as I always have. I keep the lye water/oils within 10 degrees of each other.

 

[dixiedragon]

The only thing I can think of is that maybe the container is causing the reaction? Can you try a new bucket or pot? IDK, I'm reaching here.

 

[Melissa Torre]

The only thing I can think of is that maybe the container is causing the reaction? Can you try a new bucket or pot? IDK, I'm reaching here.

It’s crazy, right?! Makes zero sense! I’ve tried multiple containers too

 

[dixiedragon]

Have you switched olive oils? From say Virgin or Grade A to Pomace maybe?

If everything is new, my suggestion actually goes the other way - maybe your original purchase of tallow was the culprit. Maybe it wasn't 100% tallow. So now it 100% tallow and so it's tracing hard and fast. Maybe try a 50% recipe and see what happens?

Also, throw in 5% castor. I think that slows trace.

 

[Steve85569]

Liquid to alkali ratio?
I would try changing the lye concentration to change the speed of trace.

But then again if nothing has changed then nothing should have changed...

 

[lenarenee]

I'm going to follow up with DeeAnna's question about what make you think it's false trace? The batter separates and the soap fails?
Or are you assuming that quick trace is the same as false trace?

 

[SaltedFig]

These are a couple of alternative possibilities to consider:

1/ Higher saturated fat:
It almost sounds like your tallow has more saturated fatty acids (eg. stearic acid) in it that it used to.

Commercial tallow is naturally a blend of saturated and unsaturated fatty acids; softer tallow has a higher unsaturated fatty acid content (such as oleic acid), and the harder tallow more saturated fatty acids (such as palmitic and stearic acids).

The other way that tallow can have a higher saturated fatty acid content would be if it has been at least partially hydrogenated - this might be done to increase the hardness of the fat for some purposes.

So an increase in saturated fatty acids in your tallow could be a deliberate manufacturing change (manufacturing change to include hydrogenation) or by source material change (different parts of the animal have different fatty acid compositions), and either of these could cause an increase in saponification speed.

If this is the cause, you could counter the change by increasing the amount of soft oils in your recipe.

2/ Chemically extracted fats:
A preservative or some other additive or even a solvent used to extract the fat in one of the oils can accelerate saponification. An example of how this can make a difference can be seen using olive oils as the example (it could be the tallow - chemical extraction is also possible with this fat). Eg. cold pressed olive oil is incredibly slow to come to trace (to the point that it can be stick blended continuously for minutes on end without getting too thick) vs the very rapid reaction with chemically extracted pomace olive oil, which thickens very rapidly, to the point that it can become soap on a stick if it is overblended - the difference is as if they are two different oils, it's that significant.

...
I like the idea of making a tiny batch with each of the oils - if there is a change in the oil, it should be fairly quick to spot which one is the culprit.

 

[DeeAnna]

I really don't think you're seeing false trace. That happens when the temp of the soap batter falls below the temp at which your fat blend will start to solidify (freeze). It causes a temporary thickening in the batter until the temp rises above the melt temp from the added heat from saponification. Then you should see the batter loosen up and become more fluid. You're not describing any of this.

What I suspect is you're seeing real trace. My guess is one of your fats -- I'd personally would look at the tallow first -- may have a much higher % of free fatty acids (FFAs) than you've been used to. Fatty acids react with an alkali in seconds to form soap. That would explain why you're seeing the batter thicken up immediately after you add the lye.

Saponification of saturated fats can be fast, but not typically that fast. The alkali has to break the fat apart first into fatty acids and glycerin, and then the fatty acids can react into soap. That first decomposition step takes a bit of time, even with saturated fats.

 

[SaltedFig]

... I’ve tried soaping hotter ...

3/ Reducing the temperature of your lye (letting it go cold) might help slow down the speed of the reaction a bit.

 

[Lin19687]

So, you pour your batter into the mold and What exactly happens to it ?
And the exact same thing happened to all 12 batches of 20# ??
I think we are missing something here.
Pic please

 

[Martha]

I just made my first batch of tallow soap and the exact same thing happened to me. My proportion of oils was a bit different:
65% Tallow
15% CO
5% Castor oil
10% AO
10%OO

I soaped at 120F and almost the second the lye water hit the oils/fats it thickened. I used the SB for just a few seconds, and then switched to a whisk. I didn't know what to do if this was false trace, so I just gently stirred the batter and then gently added some eo. The batter was thick enough that I had to spoon it into the mold. I hope it sets. @Melissa Torre What did yours do?

 

[Melissa Torre]

@Martha

I upped my water and soap below 110 now...it still starts as soon as I add my lye water, but a bit slower and more easy to manage with the extra water and lower temps. I work with small butchers, who in turn work with small farms, and there seems to be some tallow it happens with and some tallow it does not. Ive had different reactions with tallow from the same farms, processed on the same day! It was pretty frustrating, but the lower temps and extra water have made it manageable, I just have a little longer curing time now.

I hope you figure out your culprit/solution!

 

[Meena]

That's such a crazy story, Melissa! Glad you are having some success working it out, now. <3

All I can add (might be a little 'Woo' to some) is that, when oddball stuff like that happens to me with something I've been doing, my thoughts wander to: "maybe God / The Universe doesn't want me doing this right now / any more". That's just me though -- to me, there's a spiritual answer for almost everything.

 

[cmzaha]

My recipes always thicken immediately, I just stir until the batter heats up and thins out again. The problem with molding a batter that has false traced if the risk of it liquefying when it starts to gel. My high tallow recipe I usually use it when the warm oils start to cloud up. I am not recommending using my method, but heat your oils until just clear. I will add I usually soap with a 33% Lye Concentration

I just made my first batch of tallow soap and the exact same thing happened to me. My proportion of oils was a bit different:
65% Tallow
15% CO
5% Castor oil
10% AO
10%OO

I soaped at 120F and almost the second the lye water hit the oils/fats it thickened. I used the SB for just a few seconds, and then switched to a whisk. I didn't know what to do if this was false trace, so I just gently stirred the batter and then gently added some eo. The batter was thick enough that I had to spoon it into the mold. I hope it sets. @Melissa Torre What did yours do?

I would put the mold in a catch container like a plastic tote in case it thins out and runs out of the mold. Not trying to scare you but it is best to be cautious.

 

[Martha]

Thanks @Melissa Torre . Turns out the insanely fast reaction in my soap was a real trace. Have you noticed a difference in how the different batches of tallow smell when rendering them? That’s a total aside. I like the idea of using a throwaway part of the cow, but found the smell revolting.

And thanks @cmzaha for the advice about the catch basin. Thankfully I didn’t need it.