Newbie needs Help (Water calc question)

[welder]

Hi everyone.

I was reading Soapmaker Mans' sticky on mold volume/oil weight, but although I learned the formula up to the last point shown, I'm unsure how to determine how much water is needed to finish the formula.

Soapmaker Man said lenght times width times length (all in inches) times 0.40 would give the oil/fat requirement in ounces.

I understand the formula, but now I need to know how to figure out how much water I need to process the oil with.

Is it as simple as multiplying the mold volume by the remaining 0.60, or do I need to factor in the lye weight relative to the oil in order to determine the water requirement?

This is a link to the sticky I'm referring to. My post is the last one (to date).

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/forum/vi ... c&start=15

If anyone knows the answer to the question I'm asking, please chime in.

I sent a PM to Ballinthamix asking for help. He's the one who explained that Soapmaker Mans' formula was designed to yeild an oil/fat measurement in ounces, not a percentage of total ingredientsrequired. Major difference that would make!

Just in case Ballin is away for the Holidays, or too busy shopping to respond to my PM, I thought I should post the question here for any/everyones' response.

Anyway, I really need your input folks!

Thanks in advance!

 

[carebear]

what lye calculator are you using? that will give you the water you need.
or if you are doing all your calculations by hand I'd suggest a 28% lye solution.

 

[Lindy]

Hi there,

Try the lye calculator at Brambleberry http://www.brambleberry.com/lye_calc_1.php and you'll be able to figure out your liquid requirements.

Cheers
Lindy

 

[welder]

Oh that's great!

I have viewed the lye calc at www.lyedepot.com/calculator/calculator.html , but since I didn't have the soap feedstock to punch in, I wasn't aware that most lye calcs also give water weights as well.

I'll check out the Brambleberry calc too.

I'm thinking of trying to find some African Indigo and some Patchouli oil to add to my first ever soap batch. I know that because of the threat of soap batch seizure, a total newbie like me ought to avoid EOs until I get some experience with basic batches, but I think that if I hot process this batch I can avoid soap seizure.

The other reason I want to hot process my first batch is so that I can give it out as ready-to-use Christmas gifts. I'll just superfat it a few % points and boil the hell out of it to react all the lye before I add the Patchouli.

Sound sensible?

 

[welder]

Okay, so I've noticed something a little peculiar between the two different lye caculators mentioned.

There appears to some small difference between the two results based on the same values input:

Bramble:

Palm Kernel 10 Oz.
Palm 5 Oz.
Shea 1 Oz.
Lye 2.549 Oz.
H2O 5.280 Oz.


Lye Depot:

Palm Kernel 10 Oz.
Palm 5 Oz.
Shea 1 Oz.
Lye 2.34 Oz.
H2O 6.40 Oz.

Both recipes were based on a 3% superfat and the amounts given were totally arbitrary. They were only given as a baseline to see how the cacs worked. I think they are both great soaping resources, but I'm still a little confused about something odd.

Anyway, what I've noticed is that the Lye Depot calc recommends a little less lye and a lot more water than the Bramble calc does.

Both formulas were based on a 3% superfat.

The relatively small difference in lye content doesn't scare me too much, but the water is a relatively larger amount differing between the two.

I wonder if the water difference could be related to the Lye Depot calc also offering a water content (by percentage) discount into the overall recipe?

In the recipe I punched into the Lye Depot calc, the water value was at their default setting set of 40%. To a newbie like me that figure of 40% is virtually meaningless.

Does their water content discounter have anything to do with the diffence between cold and hot process soaping?

Can anyone explain the mystery???

 

[Lindy]

Boiling Soap - bad idea... 8)

When you hot process I would recommend that you get your soap to a strong trace and then put it into the oven at your lowest temperature and then check on it every 10 - 15 minutes until it has gelled and then you can pour into your molds.

Have fun and let us see pictures of your soaps once they're done please.

Cheers
Lindy

 

[Deda]

Did you check to see if both resources were using the same SAP value for the same oils? If you will notice, different sources list different SAP values for the same oil. Perhaps the difference can be attributed to the difference between the suppliers listed SAP values.

Soaping is as much an art as a science. The most important reason for the superfat, and the reason you don't leave your superfat at 0% is to account for the slight differences between ACTUAL SAP, which can only be determined in a lab, and the listed range.

edited for clarity...

 

[welder]

Boiling Soap - bad idea... 8)


Have fun and let us see pictures of your soaps once they're done please.

Cheers
Lindy

Hi Lindy.

When I mentioned boiling the soap, I meant it figuratively, not literally. What I meant is to cook it according to the normal HP method (I think it is a very low boil actually).

Regarding the pics, I still don't have a digital camera yet.

Maybe I'll have to buy my wife a digital camera to go along with the new hunting rifle and electronic welding helmet I bought her.

I think she bought me a Thighmaster, a KitchenAid food processor and an Avon manicure set...

 

[carebear]

the difference in lye is simply that the different calculators are using slightly different SAP values for the oils. your oils actually have a SAP RANGE not one exact number that every batch of that oils will hit exactly. so individual calculators may have selected different numbers within the normal RANGE for each oil. that's one reason we recommend ALWAYS including a superfat/lye discount - as a measure of safety.

the difference in water amounts is strictly a preference thing. whoever generated the calculator selected a way of calculating how much water THEY think you should use. some recommend a bit more water, some less. either is fine. as you become a more accomplished soaper you will find the lye solution concentration (because changing the amount of water simply changes the concentration of your lye solution) that you prefer to work with.

so essentially both are fine.

 

[Serene Cream]

Maybe I'll have to buy my wife a digital camera to go along with the new hunting rifle and electronic welding helmet I bought her.

I think she bought me a Thighmaster, a KitchenAid food processor and an Avon manicure set...

ROFL that is too funny - but I totally understand the logic - makes everything so much easier doesn't it!!

Merry Christmas
Debbie

 

[topcat]

Maybe I'll have to buy my wife a digital camera to go along with the new hunting rifle and electronic welding helmet I bought her.

I think she bought me a Thighmaster, a KitchenAid food processor and an Avon manicure set...

..............(deep breath).......

I LOOVE it!

Tanya :wink:

 

[Bunny]

A good rule of thumb that is good to remember is "one part lye, two parts water". In other words, say your lye amount in the recipe is 5 oz. then you would want at least 10 oz. of water (weigh your water). This will give you a 33% lye solution that is good for most recipes, unless there's mostly hard oils in the recipe, or you're using an FO (or other ingredient) that speeds up trace.... then you would want a little more water.

So, if your recipe is, say,

16 oz. olive oil
16 oz. lard
5 oz. coconut

5 oz. lye

...you'd want about 10 or 11 oz. of water (just an example).

 

[Jaaret]

Lye Percentage

I aim for a 40% solution of lye to water (by weight). I've read different opinions. The more concentrated the lye, the quicker the bars become hard because there is less water that needs to evaporate out to made the bar nice and hard.

I'm always curious to learn what percent solution other soapers use.

 

[welder]

TopCat & Serene Cream, I'm glad you liked my little Christmas joke! Life needs a laugh now and then...



Hi Bunny.

Regarding the 33% solution you mentioned, my entire motivation for learning sapmaking is to perfect basic soap recipes for my West African sister-in-law who is my business partner in starting a soap business in Ghana. That means that the great majority of the oil/fat we will be using is going to be palm kernel oil, but we may add palm oil, peanut oil, shea butter, or neem oil depending on market needs etc.

The two most common soaps in Ghana are a simple villager soap called "allata samina" which is made from ashes and palm oil, and another soap they call "key soap", which is a simple white CP soap.

The alatta samina is a sort of greyish purplish pasty goop that is about the texture of hard ice-cream. It is used almost exclusively for showering.

The key soap is used for dishes and laundry.

There is another laundry soap called "Omo", which is powdered and comes in small packets.



Anyway, because we'll be using mostly hard fats, I'm thinking we'll need to increase the water content some, but I'm not sure exactly how to determine how much extra to add.

All I can think to do is to start off making small test batches and if the results look like they need more water, then refine the recipes by adding more & more water by 10% increments in each consecutive test batch until the desired result is accomplished.

Does this make sense?

 

[carebear]

Re: Lye Percentage

I aim for a 40% solution of lye to water (by weight). I've read different opinions. The more concentrated the lye, the quicker the bars become hard because there is less water that needs to evaporate out to made the bar nice and hard.

I'm always curious to learn what percent solution other soapers use.

yes but the more concentrated the faster you reach trace, and then thick trace, and then oh **** trace...

I generally soap at 38%, but worked my way up to it. And with FOs that move fast I back down to 33-35%. For really naughty FOs I go even lower.

For castile - 45%.

 

[topcat]

May I recommend adding shea butter? I find it gives a wonderful silky, moisturising feel when using the finished soap due to the un-saponifiables it containes (basically - stuff the lye doesn't eat!!!)

Tanya

 

[welder]

May I recommend adding shea butter? I find it gives a wonderful silky, moisturising feel when using the finished soap due to the un-saponifiables it containes (basically - stuff the lye doesn't eat!!!)

Tanya

Hi Tanya.

Due to the fact that shea is from Africa, I'm assuming you were referring to my plan to make soap in Africa. The context seemed to give that impression too somewhat.

Anyway, yes, shea will likely be added to hand & body soaps.

For laundry & dish soap, whatever is cheapest and does a good job will likely be selected.

 

[topcat]

Welder, do you have easy access to coconut oil? That is great for laundry soap as it has a very high cleansing factor. Otherwise the palm kernal you plan to use is pretty good too. Probably wont need the shea in the laundry soap!

Tanya

 

[welder]

Hi again Tanya.

Yes, there's plenty of coconut. There's also lots of Palm, palm kernel, peanut, shea and neem.

I'm thinking that shea will be great in handsoap, but may be too pricey for laundry & dish soap. Time will tell, I guess.