Letter to CDC _Raw Shea

[sassanellat]

And knowledge like a sentient entity, no. Splitting hairs on a play of words, apologies for the wrong word.

Evolution takes time, and it isn't directed, so it would take a LOT of sick people to provide the replications and selection, and probably not even then.

So being 99.5 and not considered a "fever", she wasn't communicable, right???

That's mixing a lot of different ideas there. The bottom line would be that a fever indicates that there is viral replication going on, and she is contagious. The virus recognizes no numerical temperatures. You're putting the cart before the horse in this.

She did nothing wrong.

There are plenty of indications, including comments from the nurses at the hospital and across the country that they didn't get anywhere near the right training. It's extremely likely that the sick nurses DID do things wrong, as well as the docs, facilities, etc. They should have been trained better. And as far as I understand, it's standard protocol not to travel by mass transit for 21 days after potential exposure. If she had approval, it was a really, really bad idea in the desperately obvious screw-up category.

Your saying she has no common sense, per these standards, is wrong common sense....Per the cdc and healthcare standards......

Yup, I'm saying that she has no common sense, and she certainly didn't listen to any of her instructors because it was very bad idea (VBI).

See why buying things out of this region may make some of us consumers think twice? Didn't you say you were a biologist? So why one thing from you knowing the "rules of biology", and a different thing from the cdc and healthcare professionals?

No. I am, with a LOT of experience (even helped in an Ebola vaccine trial), and one that trains doctors and nurses better than what we've seen. OTOH, I'm guessing a lot of the fault is the hospital being incredibly cheap and buying bad Chinese gloves or using gloves part their expiration date. There is no inconsistency in what I've said, so if you can be more clear, I might be able to clarify.

There is indeed a lot of doublespeak being presented in this country (we have an entire news network devoted to it), but I'm not seeing what you are at all. You have the facts and official word, which has been pretty consistent as the information develops, and then you have a whole lot of people that don't know enough to comment and are just blathering in a panic. In this day and age, you have to be able to sort out the real and the whoorah out there. And the internet is full of it and the American news isn't much better.

 

[CanaDawn]

Ok...for the record I agree with sassanellat that an ICU nurse working with a level 4 virus really shouldn't have been on a public flight when she had a fever, even one below the cutoff, within the window for ebola after dealing with an ebola patient. That does show a lack of good judgement, and a low level of good sense....I hope that CDC and medical experts directly dealing with the nurse are correct that the risk is extremely low that she has infected anyone else. I believe the CDC has been on record saying they fully expect some cases globally, so this isn't really an outlandish situation at this point...but it is one that requires prompt, effective response (and not hysteria)

I'm curious who people think the CDC is composed of, and why, if people don't believe what they are hearing from CDC, they would feel that they, usually with absolutely NO scientific training, can make stronger judgement calls on their own, based largely on media information vs pathogen safety data sheets, and with generous microbiologists who are saying that avoiding imported goods is a non-issue, since ebola will NOT be transmissible in that fashion to a certainty that approaches nil (ie....there's not going to be ebola coming from raw butters and other West African goods).

I'm not saying my opinion is the be-all end-all, absolutely not, and I would defer easily to sassanellat without rancor, as yes, a microbiologist specifically working in the field of educating medical staff on microbiology and infectious disease protocol would trump my qualifications any day. I am pretty confident though that mine trump many others who have strong opinions but few facts, and who may find the complexities of the virology or the policies confusing, or who may prefer a much higher level of personal risk avoidance than I feel is necessary, or who are just plain afraid. I keep saying that I support people choosing a sky high level of risk aversion, but I wish people would understand what that is based on. (If wishes were horses, my mother would say....)

That said, I doubt the economic impact of boycotting these products will reach a level that is noticeable, and the Type I error in the hypothesis of transmission via imported goods will likely be attributed to accuracy instead of error...so it goes.

And no, specifically blaming Obama for creating and dispersing ebola. The crazy runs deep in some folks, I guess. Ebola's been known since 1976..do they really believe that a 15 yr old created it...? No, because they haven't thought about it with any nod to any facts.....hysteria and conspiracy, but no fact.

 

[CanaDawn]

No. I am

actually, yes, I am too, but I am not a microbiologist and have never claimed to be one.

In this day and age, you have to be able to sort out the real and the whoorah out there. And the internet is full of it and the American news isn't much better.

a-MEN.

 

[sassanellat]

...Why call her irresponsible, which was my point? She wasn't.

I disagree completely. She was irresponsible as far as I'm concerned. As a nurse, you work with sick people all the time, and microbial control is one of you major jobs each and every day. There are infections that you can acquire and become a carrier for, and they are trained to understand that infection control is there to not only limit patient-to-patient transfer, but also patient-to-healthcare-worker, and patient to those people that the healthcare workers live with and come in contact with (spouses, kids, parents, etc.). Treating a special patient like that and then traveling by mass transit is just a brutally bad idea from the start, and everyone involved should have been trained better. I certainly train my students better from the start - yesterday was, in fact, a day where I observed the class doing lab, and noting how many times people did inappropriate things like touching their faces or hair with gloved hands. It's a great lesson. The people they assign to treat these class A bioterror diseases need to have superior training and understand they might have some limitations.

 

[CanaDawn]

I certainly train my students better from the start

Your dedication to properly training medical staff who appear to have gaps in their prior knowledge/practice is greatly appreciated, even if I never come in contact with one of your students.

Your generosity in answering questions and bringing your expertise to this forum is also something I appreciate.

so.....thanks!

 

[sassanellat]

actually, yes, I am too, but I am not a microbiologist and have never claimed to be one.

Sorry, the first two sentences were to lionprincess. I hope I didn't mess up the attribs there.

Hopefully, this conversation is helpful to people.

 

[sassanellat]

... Ebola's been known since 1976..do they really believe that a 15 yr old created it...? No, because they haven't thought about it with any nod to any facts.....hysteria and conspiracy, but no fact.

Like HIV, deaths from Ebola have been established back at least to the 1920s. We didn't even know what DNA was the genetic material until 1951, and even today, our ability to create viruses is pretty much nil since they are extremely complicated for being so tiny. Ebola only really exists in Africa because it's a disease whose primary host is thought to be the African green fruit bat. Humans only get it when they are starving due to overpopulation and get hungry enough to eat bush meat.

 

[CanaDawn]

Like HIV, deaths from Ebola have been established back at least to the 1920s. We didn't even know what DNA was the genetic material until 1951, and even today, our ability to create viruses is pretty much nil since they are extremely complicated for being so tiny. Ebola only really exists in Africa because it's a disease whose primary host is thought to be the African green fruit bat. Humans only get it when they are starving due to overpopulation and get hungry enough to eat bush meat.

Ah, thanks for the improved information. I had a hunch mine was dated as to the Ebola origin timeframe (it just seemed unlikely that such a disease only appeared that recently, given its stability).

I think bush meat is still quite popular in places, with or without starvation, and like the burial customs, it's a tough thing to persuade some people to give up, even if they risk a horrible death.

So, you're saying it's unlikely Obama put this together in his garage as a teen? :wink:

 

[sassanellat]

So, you're saying it's unlikely Obama put this together in his garage as a teen? :wink:

I'm sure that will be a lead story on FOX tomorrow, along with all the other 'fair and balanced' insanity they air.

 

[CanaDawn]

I'm sure that will be a lead story on FOX tomorrow, along with all the other 'fair and balanced' insanity they air.

I'll probably end up labelled as a "reliable source" and quoted as a "scientist who spoke out recently about Obama". Both of which are arguably true, but sadly not in relation to his garage, nor his teen years. Isn't fact manipulation fun?!

 

[pamielynn]

Nancy Today is hands down one of the scariest soapmaking videos I've ever seen. She is wrong on so many levels and thinking of all the new soapers out there who see her videos and may follow her ways is frightening. She's been the topic of what not to do many times on several forums. She is entertaining though.

Oh she's great in the entertainment department. I'm not a soap-video-watching type of person (in fact, I wish soapers would stop with all of it), but she is just so scary, funny, crazy to watch.

But, yes - I wish her videos said "For entertainment purposes only". You gotta give her props in that she will try anything once and films it all for us to see.

But I digress from the topic at hand....

 

[sassanellat]

Just an update: the nurse traveled WITHOUT permission to her hometown, where she stayed three days. (bad decision). She was monitoring herself, and did notice a subclinical fever (good job!), and she did ask for permission to fly back. She did get permission, which the director of the CDC now says was a bad decision (der). So, this was a double bad. Schools in the nurse's hometown are closed today out of fear of transmission, with a probably cost of a hundred thousand dollars or more in lost wages, productivity and such. This is why I pointed at the nurse and said it was part her fault; even if her skills are immaculate, she should not have traveled after potential exposure as a safety measure. And the CDC really goofed here, too. I'm sure that they will get it together shortly, though.

 

[Jstar]

I think the best thing to do for us regular joe's is just to practice good sanitary habits..keep your hands washed, avoid those who are obviously sick with any kind of a cold, keep your hands away from your face etc..{especially your eyes, where most nasties are picked up from since they don't have a natural barrier like say, your nose has}

I'm not too worried about this, no more so than I was with the big H1N1 scare...{ppl really freaked out about that}

The CDC says that its not transmissible thru the air, but since it IS transferred thru body fluids eg 'saliva'..then avoiding those who are sick would be wise..{since a cough travels at about 95 mph, and a sneeze at around 100 mph, and can release about 100k germs in water droplets, those can indeed land right on your face if you are close enough to be coughed or sneezed on directly}

I'm not a doctor, and I don't work in a lab..but I'm a former tattoo artist, and I know allll about being safe and sanitary.

The CDC claims it can't travel on food..but seriously..it can I guess if someone infected coughs or sneezes on the food eh? I tend to wash my food as well...all of it {part raccoon?}before I eat it so that's kind of a moot point for me.

With that all being said, and regarding the topic I strayed away from...{duh} I would think the lye would obliterate anything nasty that may be lurking on the butter's surface...just wear your gloves when handling it.

I did find this little tidbit on the CDC website...

http://www.cdc.gov/vhf/ebola/pdf/infographic.pdf

And then this bit of info as well updated on the 15th:
-----------------------------------------------------
http://www.cdc.gov/vhf/ebola/outbreaks/2014-west-africa/united-states-imported-case.html
Ebola Contact Tracing, Dallas, Texas

Date: 10/15/2014

Confirmed Cases: 3

Contacts*: 11

Possible Contacts**: 107

Total: 118

*Contacts – Definite exposure
**Possible Contacts – Possible exposure
Note: The number of possible contacts increased significantly Oct. 14 to account for a group of healthcare workers who were previously self-monitoring and are now being actively monitored following a healthcare worker's Ebola diagnosis over the weekend. Another case was diagnosed Oct. 15, which also impacted the numbers.
Contacts are defined as people who had definite exposure to an Ebola patient.
Updates: Numbers are accurate as of 5 p.m. the previous day and are updated at approximately noon each day. Public health officials attempt to reach all contacts/possible contacts every day to check for fever and other symptoms. Daily follow-up with contacts/possible contacts will continue for 21 days from the date of each person’s exposure.
-------------------------------------
Note that there are only 3 confirmed...and only 1 death..the guy that originally brought it over...


Anyway, I'm rambling as I usually do.....sorry

 

[CanaDawn]

Jani - the risk of someone getting ebola from raw shea shipped into North America is about as close to nothing as a scientist would ever say...Just use it. Wearing gloves will make no difference whatsoever.

I still feel extremely confident that there would be NO ebola on any African import that would have survived the voyage. the time, the drying out, the likely irradiation at various borders, and for shea butter, the fats and oils.

Ebola is a fairly well known virus to actual virologists who specialise in that sort of infection, because it is a fairly stable virus that doesn't mutate quickly...sadly, the information about it isn't as resistant to hyperbole and hypothesizing by people without quite enough information. What I have read today in various places (including the Giants reportedly being afraid to play the Dallas football team - what?? That's absurd in the extreme!) just makes me sad for humanity in their loss of good sense and their insistence on making up their own facts regardless of their level of ignorance.

Why ask for and receive good evidence- and expertise- based advice from CDC (and here from our own sassanellat) if you're just going to ignore it to make things up anyhow? It's frustrating.

 

[Susie]

I watched the subcommittee hearing today on ebola. You two should go watch it. Very enlightening. Has only confirmed my previous concerns.

 

[Jstar]

Cana- As I said, I'm not particularly worried about it myself {in fact I would be less than 1% worried about it out of 100%}..those who may be more inclined to be a bit more on the cautious side however..they can wear gloves if it really bothers them.

Really the whole point of my post was to ease fears that we have an 'outbreak' in the US....that word just freaks ppl out and its really unnecessary

 

[CanaDawn]

Cana- As I said, I'm not particularly worried about it myself {in fact I would be less than 1% worried about it out of 100%}..those who may be more inclined to be a bit more on the cautious side however..they can wear gloves if it really bothers them.

Really the whole point of my post was to ease fears that we have an 'outbreak' in the US....that word just freaks ppl out and its really unnecessary

Agreed. There is a lot of fear, and speculation, and people seem to almost enjoy coming up with more and more outlandish concerns...we can "what if" any situation into something horrific, if we let our imaginations go...but it's better to deal with the situation as it IS. Ebola's nasty, but fear is the big wildcard that can ruin any system's ability to cope.

Remains to be seen what effect sending in the National Guard will have.

I wish people could wrap their heads around what the difference is between "airborne" and "aerosols". That would be a great step forward to stopping some of the more rampant made-up "facts". That and if they could get their heads around the NUMBERS we're talking about in terms of infectious people (currently 3), and the percent of the overall population they represent (I don't even know...what's the population of Dallas, just for starters). Where it's bad, it's really bad, but North America isn't that place, and I truly don't see it becoming that place.

Let's just say, if I were a betting kinda person, this isn't the end times on which my money would be placed...it's just not going to play out that way, in any realistic scenario I can foresee.

 

[Jstar]

I guess a good simple way of looking at the difference would be that airborne are 'dry' and aerosols are 'wet'...so you would actually have to be sneezed or coughed directly on in the face, or in an open wound by a confirmed infected person, to catch it that way.

And yea, the numbers..those are so small its not even funny in the grand scheme of things.

Suffice it to say, will I buy Shea from Africa..Yup. We have to remember that Ebola has been around for a very long time..and in Africa. I mean seriously, if one were to be able to catch it from the Shea, {which just makes me shake my head} we would've caught it long before now.