Hot Prosess soap problem

[Kristina]

Hello,

We try to make hot process soap but we have a little problem about this.

Water 160 gr
lye 92 gr
Olive oil 780 gr
Castor oil 50 gr

You can see on the photo what is the problem, when it is getting dry it does not become solid soap, it has a lot of small pieces which go away.

We try to keep hotness around 80degree and it stays on fire more or less hour.

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[Susie]

I ran your recipe through http://soapee.com/calculator, and it says you do not have enough NaOH in the mix. You have approximately 18% superfat. So, I have a couple of questions.

1. Did you use a lye calculator to get the proper amount of NaOH and water?
2. Are you sure that you are using pure NaOH, and not something else that someone called "lye"?

That soap, if properly made, will still take a very long time to cure. I would suggest you start with something that will take only 4-6 weeks to cure. (HP takes as long to cure as CP, in case someone misled you.)

The good news is that unless you have used a lot of it, it can be rebatched. You will still have months to wait for it to cure, however.

 

[Kristina]

I ran your recipe through http://soapee.com/calculator, and it says you do not have enough NaOH in the mix. You have approximately 18% superfat. So, I have a couple of questions.

1. Did you use a lye calculator to get the proper amount of NaOH and water?
2. Are you sure that you are using pure NaOH, and not something else that someone called "lye"?

That soap, if properly made, will still take a very long time to cure. I would suggest you start with something that will take only 4-6 weeks to cure. (HP takes as long to cure as CP, in case someone misled you.)

The good news is that unless you have used a lot of it, it can be rebatched. You will still have months to wait for it to cure, however.

Thank you so much for your answer we appreciate it so much but I do not understand something:

Why do we need to wait in HP?
What is the point of HP then?
What is the difference between HP and CP then?

Answers to your question:
Did you use a lye calculator to get the proper amount of NaOH and water?
Yes

Are you sure that you are using pure NaOH, and not something else that someone called "lye"
Yes

 

[shunt2011]

HP requires more liquid to make. Therefore takes as long or longer to cure. People do HP as they can add their superfat after the cook and to use EO/FO that don't behave well. Some just like the rustic look. Part of the cure is the evaporation of water. But there is more that goes on with a good cure.

Also, you are using primarily olive oil and Olive oil soap needs to cure 6-12 months. It's tends to have a snot like lather that's stringy and unpleasant at least to me. I don't make high OO soap. I much prefer a more balanced bar with Coconut, Lard/Palm, Castor, Olive or Avocado and a bit of shea.

CP is smoother, easier to do swirls etc. CP doesn't need to be cooked. I do mostly CP as I like to play with swirls and I like the smoothness of it. I only do HP to make my shave soap.

Both types of soap can be used sooner, it just won't be at it best.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

So you were aiming for an 18% super fat? Where did you get the recipe and your basic information for soap making? This soap does not need so high a super fat.

As for hp, there are various stages which a soap reaches. One is "saponified" and another is "cured".

Saponification is over when all the lye is reacted. In cold process, that can be 12 hours but most often around 24. Can also be longer in some cases. With hot process, this is when the batter is fully cooked and no longer zaps (check out the stickied posts for information on what zap testing is).

Cured depends on the recipe - some need longer than others, but a minimum of 4 weeks is suggested, regardless of recipe and process. Soaps high in soft oils (such as this one) are often cured for ONE YEAR by most who make them. Hot process doesn't really reduce it as the two are not related - cure and saponification aren't the same thing

 

[Susie]

ETA: I cross-posted with the above.

Thank you so much for your answer we appreciate it so much but I do not understand something:

Why do we need to wait in HP?

HP ensures the soap is saponified or "safe" as there is no unreacted NaOH left in it. It does not ensure that the soap is "cured" which is when it will be a good, long lasting bar of soap.

What is the point of HP then?

HP is a good way to make things like shaving soap. It can be used to choose the oil that becomes the superfat, or to enable someone to use an FO that would otherwise misbehave in CP.

I have personal opinions on why people would get on YouTube and say that the soap is cured that would get me reprimanded by the wonderful mods on this forum.

What is the difference between HP and CP then?

You "cook" HP and don't on CP. That's it. You still need cure time. Don't feel bad for being misled, though. Most of us that learned how to make soap by watching YouTube thought the same thing until we either tested that soap, or came to this forum. That's why we try to jump in with correcting that misleading information right off the bat when someone says they made their first batch of soap using HP.

 

[Kristina]

So you were aiming for an 18% super fat? Where did you get the recipe and your basic information for soap making? This soap does not need so high a super fat.

As for hp, there are various stages which a soap reaches. One is "saponified" and another is "cured".

Saponification is over when all the lye is reacted. In cold process, that can be 12 hours but most often around 24. Can also be longer in some cases. With hot process, this is when the batter is fully cooked and no longer zaps (check out the stickied posts for information on what zap testing is).

Cured depends on the recipe - some need longer than others, but a minimum of 4 weeks is suggested, regardless of recipe and process. Soaps high in soft oils (such as this one) are often cured for ONE YEAR by most who make them. Hot process doesn't really reduce it as the two are not related - cure and saponification aren't the same thing

Normaly I do not make OO soap but I had a such a request. Last night I tried to make some but I failed

Can you please help me and suggest some OO soap receipt for which you will not need to wait so long?

I would like to try your receipt today

Thank you so much

 

[DeeAnna]

The other problem with your HP recipe is there is not enough water in the recipe. Your soap is drying out too much when you cook it. The white pieces in your photos are bits of soap that are too dry.

A recipe that is olive oil and castor should not have 18% superfat. That is much too high for this type of recipe.

An HP recipe should have a lye concentration of about 25%. Your lye concentration is 36%. That would work fine for CP, but that is not enough water for HP. In addition to using more water in the recipe, be sure to keep the soap pot tightly covered while you cook the soap. That will reduce the amount of evaporation of the water.

The others are right -- HP does not shorten the cure time, regardless of what other people say.

Soap with a lot of olive oil is going to cure slowly no matter how you make it. If you want a soap that is ready to use more quickly, use a more balanced recipe. Susie has a recipe that is a good one -- perhaps she will post it for you.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

No, I won't - because all high olive oil recipes will need a while to cure. A more balanced recipe would be best as they are ready in 4 weeks or so. There are many good recipes to be found in threads currently active.

Plus, I think that you have a lot of learning to do before you start taking requests for soaps, so taking the time to read different threads on balanced recipes will be very beneficial in general. I would suggest investing time to get some good foundations instead of making another batch today.

 

[Kristina]

ETA: I cross-posted with the above.



HP ensures the soap is saponified or "safe" as there is no unreacted NaOH left in it. It does not ensure that the soap is "cured" which is when it will be a good, long lasting bar of soap.


HP is a good way to make things like shaving soap. It can be used to choose the oil that becomes the superfat, or to enable someone to use an FO that would otherwise misbehave in CP.

I have personal opinions on why people would get on YouTube and say that the soap is cured that would get me reprimanded by the wonderful mods on this forum.




You "cook" HP and don't on CP. That's it. You still need cure time. Don't feel bad for being misled, though. Most of us that learned how to make soap by watching YouTube thought the same thing until we either tested that soap, or came to this forum. That's why we try to jump in with correcting that misleading information right off the bat when someone says they made their first batch of soap using HP.

Thank you so much for your directions and information. I can make CP soap normally but this is my first time with HP and OO soap.

If you do not mind can you share your OO receipt?

Normally I do not make OO soap, I make more balanced as you mention but as I told earlier, I had such a request and I would like to make it.

So, it would be great if Susie or anyone else can share the receipt.

The other problem with your HP recipe is there is not enough water in the recipe. Your soap is drying out too much when you cook it. The white pieces in your photos are bits of soap that are too dry.

A recipe that is olive oil and castor should not have 18% superfat. That is much too high for this type of recipe.

An HP recipe should have a lye concentration of about 25%. Your lye concentration is 36%. That would work fine for CP, but that is not enough water for HP. In addition to using more water in the recipe, be sure to keep the soap pot tightly covered while you cook the soap. That will reduce the amount of evaporation of the water.

The others are right -- HP does not shorten the cure time, regardless of what other people say.

Soap with a lot of olive oil is going to cure slowly no matter how you make it. If you want a soap that is ready to use more quickly, use a more balanced recipe. Susie has a recipe that is a good one -- perhaps she will post it for you.

I will try as you mention.

Thank you so much also.

 

[dixiedragon]

Deanna - one of our chemistry experts - explained that while soap is curing the soap molecules are crystalizing. that's why soap is better at 2 months, then at 6 months, etc.

Olive oil soap is very slow about this, for some reason.

I do think that HP shaves about a week off of cure time, but it's not ready the next day. 1 day old HP will not irritate your skin the way 1 day old CP will, but it is still not good soap.

 

[dixiedragon]

There's Deeanna! *waves* She is a smart cookie! I agree with the overcooked - have you watched a video or looked at pics of HP? Here is a good video.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scokYOkLcQo[/ame]

I have found it helpful to leave the slowcooker on "low" until the last 10 minutes or so.

 

[toxikon]

Pure Olive Oil soap is known as Castille Soap and it takes a very long time to cure, 6 months to a year for best results.

You could try a Bastille Soap instead that is still high in Olive Oil but contains additional oils. Adding Sodium Lactate can also help produce a harder bar in a shorter amount of time. Lowering your water amount will also produce a faster cure. Bastille Soap will still benefit from a longer cure, but more like 6 weeks to 3 months (as far as I know).

I have used the following Bastille recipe with good results:

75% Olive Oil
25% Coconut Oil

5% Superfat
35% Lye Concentration

Note: I am only talking about cold-process soap as I have not made hot-process before.

 

[Susie]

My recipes all contain more than olive oil and castor oil...on purpose. High olive oil soaps take too long to cure, and I detest the slimy lather. I prefer high lard (pork fat) recipes. I noticed you are from Turkey, so there may be religious or cultural reasons you won't use it. If not, let me know, and I will be happy to share.

I also do not make HP soap (no benefit for so much extra work). So, I am not much help in the HP part of your recipe.

 

[earlene]

Kristina, how long have you been making soap? Just curious. Who is requesting an olive oil soap from you? How long are they willing to wait? If you explain to them that the cure time for olive oil soaps is much longer than for other soaps, perhaps that will impact their desire for the soap. If not, well, you need to tell them that you just don't have any on hand and that it will be at least 9 - 12 months before you have any available because that's not your 'specialty'. For me, I like the Castile soap I made 15 months ago, but I am still giving it more cure time to see how it changes over time. I've made more since, of course, but all of it will not be given to anyone until I am sure I think it performs well in the long-run.

Those are my thoughts on the matter.

Here are some ideas if you are serious about making a Castile soap or a high olive oil soap. I want to emphasize this is JUST for EXPERIMENTATION and not to sell or give away until YOU have personally tested them yourself after a good long cure.

Try the Dual Lye Castile soap method. (You can use the Soapee lye calculator for dual lye recipes.)
Make it CP (I think it comes out looking nicer & you can do colored swirls if desired.)
Try it with different kinds of OO: Mix regular OO and Pomace OO, or each alone. (Pomace traces faster, so be prepared.)
Experiment with the vinegar in place of water method.
Try it with added sugar for bubbles.
Try it with Sodium Lactate to help it unmold sooner (not necessary, but helps if you want to free up your mold for other soaps.)
Try it with added salt for hardness.
Take abundant notes, throughout the life of the soap.
Read, read and read some more on the threads about high olive oil recipes here and elsewhere.

In fact, I agree with The Efficacious Gentleman, do the reading first.

In your reading, it would be good to look for comments about what the soap is like after different lengths of cure time. Sometimes people include that information, sometimes they don't. If they don't you don't really know what to expect unless you've done it yourself. Here is a report on some single oil soaps, an experiment that is actually quite fun to do on your own.

For me, soapmaking is fun and I love experimenting with new-to-me ideas or techniques. But experimentation without abundant note-taking is next to useless for me as my memory is not perfect by any means. Besides, I believe soapmaking is a science (as well as an art) and without note-taking scientific method is simply a shot-the-dark.

 

[Kristina]

Pure Olive Oil soap is known as Castille Soap and it takes a very long time to cure, 6 months to a year for best results.

You could try a Bastille Soap instead that is still high in Olive Oil but contains additional oils. Adding Sodium Lactate can also help produce a harder bar in a shorter amount of time. Lowering your water amount will also produce a faster cure. Bastille Soap will still benefit from a longer cure, but more like 6 weeks to 3 months (as far as I know).

I have used the following Bastille recipe with good results:

75% Olive Oil
25% Coconut Oil

5% Superfat
35% Lye Concentration

Note: I am only talking about cold-process soap as I have not made hot-process before.

Thank you for your receipt, it is really nice and I think I will try it.

My recipes all contain more than olive oil and castor oil...on purpose. High olive oil soaps take too long to cure, and I detest the slimy lather. I prefer high lard (pork fat) recipes. I noticed you are from Turkey, so there may be religious or cultural reasons you won't use it. If not, let me know, and I will be happy to share.

I also do not make HP soap (no benefit for so much extra work). So, I am not much help in the HP part of your recipe.

I also tried to use animal fat but not pork, it was cow fat. I did not like it as it gave too heavy smell. I changed few producers of fat because I thought it will change the quality but it did not work. Still it was smelling too bad.

Kristina, how long have you been making soap? Just curious. Who is requesting an olive oil soap from you? How long are they willing to wait? If you explain to them that the cure time for olive oil soaps is much longer than for other soaps, perhaps that will impact their desire for the soap. If not, well, you need to tell them that you just don't have any on hand and that it will be at least 9 - 12 months before you have any available because that's not your 'specialty'. For me, I like the Castile soap I made 15 months ago, but I am still giving it more cure time to see how it changes over time. I've made more since, of course, but all of it will not be given to anyone until I am sure I think it performs well in the long-run.

Those are my thoughts on the matter.

Here are some ideas if you are serious about making a Castile soap or a high olive oil soap. I want to emphasize this is JUST for EXPERIMENTATION and not to sell or give away until YOU have personally tested them yourself after a good long cure.

Try the Dual Lye Castile soap method. (You can use the Soapee lye calculator for dual lye recipes.)
Make it CP (I think it comes out looking nicer & you can do colored swirls if desired.)
Try it with different kinds of OO: Mix regular OO and Pomace OO, or each alone. (Pomace traces faster, so be prepared.)
Experiment with the vinegar in place of water method.
Try it with added sugar for bubbles.
Try it with Sodium Lactate to help it unmold sooner (not necessary, but helps if you want to free up your mold for other soaps.)
Try it with added salt for hardness.
Take abundant notes, throughout the life of the soap.
Read, read and read some more on the threads about high olive oil recipes here and elsewhere.

In fact, I agree with The Efficacious Gentleman, do the reading first.

In your reading, it would be good to look for comments about what the soap is like after different lengths of cure time. Sometimes people include that information, sometimes they don't. If they don't you don't really know what to expect unless you've done it yourself. Here is a report on some single oil soaps, an experiment that is actually quite fun to do on your own.

For me, soapmaking is fun and I love experimenting with new-to-me ideas or techniques. But experimentation without abundant note-taking is next to useless for me as my memory is not perfect by any means. Besides, I believe soapmaking is a science (as well as an art) and without note-taking scientific method is simply a shot-the-dark.

I have been making soap for near 2 years but only CP. It started as a hobby and I was just giving my soap as a present but people liked it and I started to sell it. I got a request for olive soap, I do not think they are ready to wait so long time, I think they just wanna buy if it is readily available. After I say that they need to wait so long I think that will for sure impact their desire. They will just try to find it from another soapmaker Because in Turkey olive oil and everything connected with it is very popular including handmade olive oil soap. But you are right, it is better not to be in a hurry and just to study well about this case and try to make it few times and see the reaction.