Hello from St Louis, MO (area..)

[doriettefarm]

Any suggestions on KOH brands? I was going to buy this KOH, but after reading some reviews I realized there is a slight consistency issue on purity. Any thoughts? If you read the first 4 star review I believe that is the one that talks about the purity.

I'm leery of ordering lye from Amazon. I've heard rave reviews about Duda Diesel and will probably order from them next time I need lye since they're pretty local. https://www.dudadiesel.com/search.php?query=potassium+hydroxide

I've also ordered from the Chemistry Store and been happy with the quality. http://www.chemistrystore.com/Chemicals_G-R-Potassium_Hydroxide.html

I'm glad to hear you're going to give IL's recipe a shot. I think if you get the basic process down, you'll be better able to direct your chemists and get the results your looking for sooner. Or you may find that you really enjoy soap making, formulating and having total control over the end result . . . that wouldn't be a bad thing either.

 

[BigJimmyW13]

I'm leery of ordering lye from Amazon. I've heard rave reviews about Duda Diesel and will probably order from them next time I need lye since they're pretty local. https://www.dudadiesel.com/search.php?query=potassium+hydroxide

I've also ordered from the Chemistry Store and been happy with the quality. http://www.chemistrystore.com/Chemicals_G-R-Potassium_Hydroxide.html

I'm glad to hear you're going to give IL's recipe a shot. I think if you get the basic process down, you'll be better able to direct your chemists and get the results your looking for sooner. Or you may find that you really enjoy soap making, formulating and having total control over the end result . . . that wouldn't be a bad thing either.

I planned on making the soap myself all along, I hired a chemist to give me a starting block on reproducing the other product. It was never an intention to have someone else produce the soap. Which as almost all of you have said, the original product ingredient's list doesn't really make sense. It didn't really to him either. Also, not sure why he chose to use NaOH instead of KOH, but he did. Now I'm of course sitting here without any sort of soap product. I'm going to start with IL's recipe and then I should have a better understanding of what I need to do and look for. I reattempted the formula he sent me last night again. It did separate again, but when I hit it with the stick blender again, once it cooled, it turned into almost solid foam. Does that sound right?

 

[doriettefarm]

I'm curious what this NaOH concoction looks like. Would you mind posting a pic?

If the previous attempts resulted in an oily mess, my gut feeling is the NaOH solution was too weak to completely saponify the oil mixture. But I'm not really motivated to crunch the numbers by hand and figure it out. Also not sure what's up with the foam unless you just stickblended so much air into it that it turned frothy.

 

[BigJimmyW13]

Here's a picture of the result after I added some water and blended it again. The foam is very, very thick.

 

[doriettefarm]

Do you have a 'before' pic? And can you get a pic from the side so we're able to see what's underneath the foam?

I'm betting it will separate again if you let it sit undisturbed. If it was oily & separated before you added more water & stickblended, I still think there wasn't enough lye to saponify the oils. Even when I do a 3% built in superfat I don't get any separation or weeping oils in my soap paste.

It's almost like your chemist is trying to skip the paste step by cooking and diluting at the same time. I've never tried this approach even with KOH so can't really give any constructive advice other than ditch the NaOH recipe.

 

[BigJimmyW13]

Do you have a 'before' pic? And can you get a pic from the side so we're able to see what's underneath the foam?

I'm betting it will separate again if you let it sit undisturbed. If it was oily & separated before you added more water & stickblended, I still think there wasn't enough lye to saponify the oils. Even when I do a 3% built in superfat I don't get any separation or weeping oils in my soap paste.

It's almost like your chemist is trying to skip the paste step by cooking and diluting at the same time. I've never tried this approach even with KOH so can't really give any constructive advice other than ditch the NaOH recipe.

I don't have a before picture as I figured it a complete failure, but the whole thing is just the foam. All the way through. This is a picture of the bottom.

 

[BigJimmyW13]

It's been sitting all day, but the foam really is thick, thick. That spoon doesn't move when I turn it on it's side. It's not solid, but very thick.

 

[doriettefarm]

Well dang, that is very bizzare! I wasn't expecting to see foam all the way to the bottom of the container . . . thought it was more like the frothy head on a freshly poured beer. I guess you have some sort of soap there but it definitely doesn't look like shampoo consistency. I think the before pics would have been more helpful for troubleshooting purposes.

I wonder what would happen if you spritz the foam with rubbing alcohol? Sorta like spraying the tops of m&p soap to break up any surface bubbles. Might be interesting to see what happens . . . I wouldn't be too keen to use it in it's present state so not like you have much to lose.

 

[BigJimmyW13]

Well dang, that is very bizzare! I wasn't expecting to see foam all the way to the bottom of the container . . . thought it was more like the frothy head on a freshly poured beer. I guess you have some sort of soap there but it definitely doesn't look like shampoo consistency. I think the before pics would have been more helpful for troubleshooting purposes.

I wonder what would happen if you spritz the foam with rubbing alcohol? Sorta like spraying the tops of m&p soap to break up any surface bubbles. Might be interesting to see what happens . . . I wouldn't be too keen to use it in it's present state so not like you have much to lose.

I thought about that as well. Although I seemingly can't find my rubbing alcohol. So when I go to town tomorrow I will pick some up and maybe try the recipe again. I should also add that I did a taste test and it definitely tasted like soap.

 

[BigJimmyW13]

Alright, so I went ahead and attempted to make it again.. Don't judge me on my hotplate's appearance. The first picture is right after adding Phase B to Phase A. The 2nd picture is after cutting the heat and adding Phase C to Phase AB. There is definitely a difference in color and it is beginning to form bubbles, it seems pretty thin still, but we will see. I'm waiting until the temp of the solution reaches around 40C before adding the essential oils.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

For now, I would stop trying to make this product. As you sell, please do not sell any soap-based products that you make until you've been playing with them for at least a year - this gives you time to get experience, tweak things to where you are happy, and to see what happens to year-old soap (always keep a bit for history) - as in, has it gone bad in that time.

So play with the gls. Maybe try your hand at other types to see what they are like. Tweak and learn and explore. Then come back to selling this product. If you start selling it before you have experience with soap, you are doing your customers a disservice

 

[doriettefarm]

I took the percentages from your chemist's recipe and attempted to calculate the oil percentages for the total oil weight instead of total recipe weight. This was necessary to determine if the amount of NaOH you are using is enough to completely saponify the oils. I guess I wanted to see if your chemist at least knew how to properly calculate the lye amount even if it was the wrong type of lye.

Anyhoo, I plugged the oil percentages into soapee using a 0% superfat and 20% NaOH concentration. The amount of NaOH soapee calculated was approximately 1 gram less than what your chemist appeared to use. That's assuming 100% purity of NaOH.

The other interesting tidbit is that soapee also calculated the water amount needed for the 20% NaOH solution within 5 grams. So basically the conclusion I'm drawing is this . . . you have an extremely diluted version of a 0% superfat bar soap (that probably would have taken forever to cure in bar form because of the water amount). I roughly figure the final dilution ratio of your concoction to be 1 part soap and 2 parts water.

So again you're back to square 1. Why do you think your results are going to drastically differ using the same recipe & process each time? I will repeat my comment from very early in the thread . . . KOH is what you want for a liquid soap base. NaOH will produce inferior results which you have repeatedly proven.

 

[BigJimmyW13]

I took the percentages from your chemist's recipe and attempted to calculate the oil percentages for the total oil weight instead of total recipe weight. This was necessary to determine if the amount of NaOH you are using is enough to completely saponify the oils. I guess I wanted to see if your chemist at least knew how to properly calculate the lye amount even if it was the wrong type of lye.

Anyhoo, I plugged the oil percentages into soapee using a 0% superfat and 20% NaOH concentration. The amount of NaOH soapee calculated was approximately 1 gram less than what your chemist appeared to use. That's assuming 100% purity of NaOH.

The other interesting tidbit is that soapee also calculated the water amount needed for the 20% NaOH solution within 5 grams. So basically the conclusion I'm drawing is this . . . you have an extremely diluted version of a 0% superfat bar soap (that probably would have taken forever to cure in bar form because of the water amount). I roughly figure the final dilution ratio of your concoction to be 1 part soap and 2 parts water.

So again you're back to square 1. Why do you think your results are going to drastically differ using the same recipe & process each time? I will repeat my comment from very early in the thread . . . KOH is what you want for a liquid soap base. NaOH will produce inferior results which you have repeatedly proven.

I was actually just remaking it so you could see the before and after, not necessarily trying to make this formula work. I also am not using the preservative Euxyl PE 9010. That is the one difference from the recipe.

 

[doriettefarm]

I don't think that tiny amount of preservative will make a bit of difference in the final product look & feel. Adding more guar gum could thicken it further but I've never used it and don't know the max%. Again, I think you'll be much happier with the result once you try the KOH version. Also keep in mind that most of us are used to making a paste then diluting instead of diluting during the cook process.

 

[BigJimmyW13]

I don't think that tiny amount of preservative will make a bit of difference in the final product look & feel. Adding more guar gum could thicken it further but I've never used it and don't know the max%. Again, I think you'll be much happier with the result once you try the KOH version. Also keep in mind that most of us are used to making a paste then diluting instead of diluting during the cook process.

I'm sure you're right! I definitely plan on giving Irish Lass's recipe a go. It'll be a good learning experience and I'll be able to see the process the liquid takes to saponify.

 

[BigJimmyW13]

So, I am going to backtrack from liquid soap, for now, since it is supposedly more difficult than bar soap to produce. Apparently, I've been trying to drive a car before crawling. :mrgreen: Any suggestions on a simple, gentle and moisturizing bar soap recipes that I should begin with/attempt?

 

[Susie]

1. Liquid soap is no more difficult than bar soap. It is different, that's all. Try IrishLass' recipe and method (except mix the KOH with an equal weight water, then add the balance in glycerin to the oils).

2. I already gave you a simple, easy, cheap recipe that is gentle and not stripping. Soap cleans, it does not moisturize. But some soaps strip more of your natural oils than others. That recipe is not stripping.

 

[shunt2011]

^^^^
This exactly. Soap is a wash off product. Will not condition or moisturize. However, it can be formulated not to strip the hyde from your skin. Follow Susie's recipe.

Start with liquid soap, just follow the recipe from IL and you should be fine and dandy.

 

[doriettefarm]

Ditto to Susie & shunt's advice. I don't think liquid soap is more difficult than bar soap if you use IrishLass' process. You really don't need to cook liquid soap like some folks do plus you don't have to wait for it to cure like a bar soap. It may seem more involved because of the dilution process but once you get your ratios down it's all good. I actually prefer LS for naughty FOs (florals/spices that rice or accelerate in CP) and you can get away with using much less fragrance than in CP.

 

[Susie]

And liquid soap is wonderful to use citrus EOs in.