First time Soaper - Pine Tar.

[David1pro]

Hello all. First post! I wanted to run my recipe by the great people here to see if I'm heading into any unexpected scenarios. I fell in love with the Pine Tar Grandpa makes (to avoid using the brand name) but it is quite expensive, and in my opinion, not strong enough on the pine tar. There are great homemade pine tar soaps out there on Etsy and such, but they are quite expensive and I've always been a do-it-yourself type person... so, I'm going to make soap.

I've bought my ingredients. I went all out and got this pine tar: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000P7K46S/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

It says it's made especially for medical purposes and not only horse purposes like most cheaper brands. Others have commented that its smoky flavor is more pure and less "burnt rubbery" than the more common brands. I'm using Costco's Avocado, Extra Virgin Olive, and Organic Virgin Coconut oils. The lard I got is the Armour brand from WalMart. I plan to use cold process with a whisk for all the stirring. I made my own wooden molds this week and will line them with parchment paper:



Here is a screenshot of my recipe I'm planning to use. By my calculations, it should fill my smaller mold with about 1/4 inch to spare (mold is: 12.25" x 4.24" x 2.75") I researched and looked at all sorts of recipes online. There is every variation you can imagine. As far as I know, mine is unique:

I like pine tar because it's truly a "manly" smelling soap, but it's also good as I do struggle with eczema and crappy skin in general. In my recipe above, my fear is that with 18% pine tar, I'll have trouble getting a hard bar that won't dissolve in a few uses. It's for that fear that I have 20% coconut oil, though I'd be fine for lowering that if people felt I'd still get a hard bar - I've just read that in addition to causing super-fast trace, pine tar can cause a soft bar, which I know isn't really calculated in the calculator (Pine tar has no listed quality values - it's just there for lye purposes).

I'm ultimately looking for a strong pine tar soap that is cleansing for daily use, but not for deep dirt or grime, and is good for sensitive, dry, mixed, eczema prone skin.

My guess is I'll make the lye-water, let it cool a bit, heat the soaps to melting (not too hot - just the 76 degree Coconut Oil is solid at room temp this time of year), blend half the oil with they lye (whisk) and then blend the rest of the oil with the pine tar mixed in and be ready to pour into my mold within just a few seconds when it seems to be thickening up.

Thoughts? Any points of improvement?

 

[cmzaha]

Here is a great article written by our forum member DeeAnna and our resident chemist.
https://classicbells.com/soap/pineTarSoap.html Her methods wor k well. I make it for my daughter at 15% pine tar and she really likes it. I also like the smell of pine tar soap with no added fragrance

 

[DeeAnna]

Hard soap is not necessarily long lasting soap, so don't get carried away with lots of coconut oil. If you want a longer lasting and hard soap, you want more lard. I usually like to see the combined palmitic and stearic % in the low to mid 30's. That said, it's difficult to get that much palmitic and stearic if you also want a high % of pine tar and an otherwise balanced blend of fats. It's called finding the best compromise, because you won't get it all.

I wouldn't recommend making pine tar soap for a first batch. Most people are all fingers and thumbs for the first few batches and benefit from a slow moving, forgiving recipe. But that's your call.

 

[David1pro]

Here is a great article written by our forum member DeeAnna and our resident chemist.
https://classicbells.com/soap/pineTarSoap.html

Thanks! I have read her article and my recipe/proposed method is highly influenced by what DeeAnna has written (who also posted right after you).

Hard soap is not necessarily long lasting soap, so don't get carried away with lots of coconut oil. If you want a longer lasting and hard soap, you want more lard. I usually like to see the combined palmitic and stearic % in the low to mid 30's. That said, it's difficult to get that much palmitic and stearic if you also want a high % of pine tar and an otherwise balanced blend of fats. It's called finding the best compromise, because you won't get it all.

Thanks! I don't think I thought of more lard as equaling longer lasting (there's so much to remember!). I think I'll give 5% of my coconut back to the lard.

I wouldn't recommend making pine tar soap for a first batch. Most people are all fingers and thumbs for the first few batches and benefit from a slow moving, forgiving recipe. But that's your call...

I know, but if it fails it'll be practice for my making pine tar, as right now, I'm not really interested in a non-pine tar soap. It's how I operate. The first cabinet I built is hanging in my kitchen, and the first tile I laid is in my bathroom. The first roof I roofed is still on my gazebo and the first stained glass I cut and leaded is hanging in my window. Hopefully the first pine tar soap I make will wash my body.

 

[Obsidian]

I don't think that much pine tar is really necessary, I use 10% and it's plenty. The soap is dark and smells of tar.
It's a tricky oil to work with but you have a good plan.
A couple suggestions though. Line your molds with freezer paper if you can find it, shiny side up so it touches the soap.
Make a smaller batch. Start with 16 oz total oils, that way if something goes won't it's not such a waste.

This is my PT recipe. It's pretty soft at first but after a nice long cure, it's decently hard.

https://www.evernote.com/shard/s216...0a3a1928d7da/6552d910f2f79529b0b6aa756d984348

 

[David1pro]

Thanks, Obsidian. I'll consider a lower dose. It also looks like Castor oil may be better than avocado oil, based on the numbers...

 

[Obsidian]

Yes, 5% castor can really give your soap a good boost.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

I would drop out the olive and avocado in favour of lard.

If this is going to be your first soap, I would just do one of the moulds. You might not like the end result with this particular recipe and want to make changes. 1.5kg is not a small batch so if you do want to make changes, you'll have a lot of soap left over.

Not only that, but if it does start to get solid too quickly, you only have to fill one mould and not two.

 

[David1pro]

1500 grams should fill the smaller mold - giving me 12 bars. (12" x 4.25" by 2.5ish high). Does that not seem right? I used a calculator I found online. I am thinking of reducing to 8 bars - about 1 kg.

I would drop out the olive and avocado in favour of lard.

Just to be sure, you are recommending only lard, pine tar and coconut oil?

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Aye. Many people use a bar of just lard and coconut.

I would still suggest making a 500g batch for now if possible.

 

[David1pro]

I have to admit, I was pleasantly surprised at the numbers in SoapCalc with just 18% pine tar, 22% Coconut Oil and 60% lard. I may try that first - a simplicity pine tar batch. For such a batch, would 3% superfat and 32% lye concentration still be appropriate?

 

[Obsidian]

That does look like a nice recipe. I think I would go with 30% lye concentration, a little extra water could help slow trace a tad. 3% SF is good for a pine tar soap

 

[David1pro]

Well, I made my first batch! It went pretty smoothly. I made the lye water with filtered water as I had forgotten to pick up distilled. My filter seems to remove most stuff and I don't have hard water so there's no excessive minerals. I had half the water as ice. I had to heat the Coconut oil and lard slowly and once that all seemed blended, I mixed half of that with the pine tar and blended by hand. Then added the lye to the non-pine tar half. I did experiment with my new stick blender with the non-pine tar half. My only thoughts are that with such a small batch, even in a small container, it's hard to get the stick blender submerged and burp the air. A bigger batch would make that easier. The stick blender brought trace pretty quickly, even without pine tar. Once I added the pine tar half of the oil mixture, I only stirred by hand - that actually brought me more time.

When I decided it was time to pour, the first 2/3 poured just fine, the last 1/3 needed encouraged to leave the pan and go into the mold. It did set up quickly. Hopefully I got everything mixed okay. it seemed pretty consistent in texture and color. I tried to smooth the top... that didn't go pretty, lol... I may need a specifically made mold-width item for that in the future.

I took people's advice and did a smaller batch - 500 grams. It should give me four large bars costing about 1.30 per bar. The only issue with the smaller batch was the stick blender attempt. I probably could have just stirred everything by hand...

I did 18% pine tar. The stuff smelled great but strong over time. Very pure, no rubber or off scent at all. I'm probably glad I got the brand DeeAnna recommended. For the rest, I left it simple, 21% Coconut Oil and 61% lard. 30% Lye concentration. 3% superfat. I'll store it uncovered and remove it tomorrow. I had to use parchment as I didn't have butcher's paper. My mold comes apart pretty well, so that shouldn't be a problem.

Only issue is I don't have a cutter, so I will have to cut carefully with a knife. I may use a miter box type setup for the temporary. I ordered a waffle style cutter but I foolishly ordered one on amazon with free shipping that apparently takes about 6 weeks. Ultimately, I plan to build a wire cutter similar to this one so I can do both types of cuts without issue: https://goldfinchsoaps.weebly.com/blog/diy-wire-cutter-soap-mold

Thanks to everyone for their help! I'm sure I'll have more questions as I experiment more in the future. I do plan to make other small batches with different recipes, so I can see which one I like best once cured.

 

[earlene]

I took people's advice and did a smaller batch - 500 grams. It should give me four large bars costing about 1.30 per bar. The only issue with the smaller batch was the stick blender attempt. I probably could have just stirred everything by hand...
View attachment 29948

The size of the container you use for small batches makes a difference when it comes to SBing. I use either a plastic measuring cup or a small capacity bowl that is more tall than it is squat. If you use a container that your SBer will fit into with more less width and more height, you won't have a problem.

Cutting with a knife works, of course, but if you have one that has minimal wedge to the blade, it makes for a better soap cutting knife than the ususal thick-spined knives.

In case that doesn't make sense verbally, look at the picture below as it shows a kitchen knife with a pretty thick spine and you can really see the wedge:

If you own a cleaver it might have less of a wedge shape, thus making it a better choice.

When my soap was on the brittle side (not on purpose of course), a kitchen knife like the one pictured above caused the soap to break apart in odd shaped shards. Perhaps it would have done so with a different knife as well, but I didn't know to try a different knife at the time.

Better yet, though, if you have a pastry knife (aka dough cutter; aka scraper/cutter; it has many names) or can find one at a local store that has kitchen tools, it is an even better choice. Similar to the one in this link. I've even found them at Second-Hand shops for under a dollar.

Another option for use with the mitre box is a Wallboard Taping Knife, such as one pictured in this link. They come in varying sizes and if you don't have one already, they are usually easily found at stores that sell home repair items. When I was ready to graduate from the wedged knife, I used the set up in the link.

The wire cutter you linked looks great. I do prefer my wire cutter over the knife methods, so when you have time to put that together, I think you'll be very happy with the results.

 

[dixiedragon]

Congrats on your first soap! Pine tar soap stays soft for along time, so I think you will be okay to cut with a knife, provided you don't mind if your bars are a bit misshapen. If perfect bars is important to you, then I suggest the miter box + dough scraper combo. Another option is a putty knife.

 

[David1pro]

You can clearly see where the "batter' thickened mid pour - it left a cap ring on the outside I didn't realize was there.


I went ahead and cut it freehand with a knife. I'm never straight with that sort of thing, but I wanted to see inside the block. I thought I had a cheap plastic miter box, but apparently I didn't and I didn't want to make a temp one just for this batch. The miter box I do have (and use on occasion) is a clear antique, but I didn't want to put the soap to that saw. Unlike a cheaper miter box, it won't work for a regular knife. No big deal.

There are a couple of small white spots - I'll have to research what caused that, but otherwise, fairly smooth. You can see a small half-ring on one end where I'd say it did not fully gel. Those spots (right two bars in the pic) were near the bottom of the block - where it would be most insulated. I did not think to watch the temp of the soap until after about an hour or 90 minutes. At that time, it was 110 on the top and cooling. I'm not sure how hot it got. I did not insulate it per DeeAna's suggestion in her post and it was in a room at about 65 degrees for that first hour or so.


I think before I make more, my next project should be a cutting tool, so future bars are at least gift worthy if the soap turns out.

Thoughts on what happened during gel phase or what caused the small white spots (or one white spot I cut in half)?

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

You can clearly see where the "batter' thickened mid pour - it left a cap ring on the outside I didn't realize was there.
View attachment 29964

I went ahead and cut it freehand with a knife. I'm never straight with that sort of thing, but I wanted to see inside the block. I thought I had a cheap plastic miter box, but apparently I didn't and I didn't want to make a temp one just for this batch. The miter box I do have (and use on occasion) is a clear antique, but I didn't want to put the soap to that saw. Unlike a cheaper miter box, it won't work for a regular knife. No big deal. View attachment 29965

There are a couple of small white spots - I'll have to research what caused that, but otherwise, fairly smooth. You can see a small half-ring on one end where I'd say it did not fully gel. Those spots (right two bars in the pic) were near the bottom of the block - where it would be most insulated. I did not think to watch the temp of the soap until after about an hour or 90 minutes. At that time, it was 110 on the top and cooling. I'm not sure how hot it got. I did not insulate it per DeeAna's suggestion in her post and it was in a room at about 65 degrees for that first hour or so.
View attachment 29963 View attachment 29966

I think before I make more, my next project should be a cutting tool, so future bars are at least gift worthy if the soap turns out.

Thoughts on what happened during gel phase or what caused the small white spots (or one white spot I cut in half)?

Dig in to the spot with a pin or somesuch - is it powdery? If so, it might be lye. But its more likely a spot of other oil which started to turn before the pt was mixed in.

Love the dark colour of your bars. Great work

 

[earlene]

Here is what I had once, and thankfully only once, and it was a lye rock. Solid crystallized rock of lye! Yours doesn't look quite like this, as far as I can tell, but without a closer look, it's worth checking. DO NOT put your tongue on it!

 

[Denise]

Hello all. First post! I wanted to run my recipe by the great people here to see if I'm heading into any unexpected scenarios. I fell in love with the Pine Tar Grandpa makes (to avoid using the brand name) but it is quite expensive, and in my opinion, not strong enough on the pine tar. There are great homemade pine tar soaps out there on Etsy and such, but they are quite expensive and I've always been a do-it-yourself type person... so, I'm going to make soap.

I've bought my ingredients. I went all out and got this pine tar: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000P7K46S/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

It says it's made especially for medical purposes and not only horse purposes like most cheaper brands. Others have commented that its smoky flavor is more pure and less "burnt rubbery" than the more common brands. I'm using Costco's Avocado, Extra Virgin Olive, and Organic Virgin Coconut oils. The lard I got is the Armour brand from WalMart. I plan to use cold process with a whisk for all the stirring. I made my own wooden molds this week and will line them with parchment paper:

View attachment 29870

Here is a screenshot of my recipe I'm planning to use. By my calculations, it should fill my smaller mold with about 1/4 inch to spare (mold is: 12.25" x 4.24" x 2.75") I researched and looked at all sorts of recipes online. There is every variation you can imagine. As far as I know, mine is unique:

View attachment 29869

I like pine tar because it's truly a "manly" smelling soap, but it's also good as I do struggle with eczema and crappy skin in general. In my recipe above, my fear is that with 18% pine tar, I'll have trouble getting a hard bar that won't dissolve in a few uses. It's for that fear that I have 20% coconut oil, though I'd be fine for lowering that if people felt I'd still get a hard bar - I've just read that in addition to causing super-fast trace, pine tar can cause a soft bar, which I know isn't really calculated in the calculator (Pine tar has no listed quality values - it's just there for lye purposes).

I'm ultimately looking for a strong pine tar soap that is cleansing for daily use, but not for deep dirt or grime, and is good for sensitive, dry, mixed, eczema prone skin.

My guess is I'll make the lye-water, let it cool a bit, heat the soaps to melting (not too hot - just the 76 degree Coconut Oil is solid at room temp this time of year), blend half the oil with they lye (whisk) and then blend the rest of the oil with the pine tar mixed in and be ready to pour into my mold within just a few seconds when it seems to be thickening up.

Thoughts? Any points of improvement?

 

[Denise]

I use 30% OO, 30% CO, 30% PT and 10% Castor. Great lather great smell and seems to help my psoriasis