Do you like your dual lye soap?

[earlene]

Interesting. I have not had softer bars from 95% NaOH + 5% KOH. I have made several batches with dual lye, with many of them well over a year old at this point. Several are 6 months or older, as well. I have not got around to testing them one against another in terms of the same recipe as 95% vs 100% NaOH, however, so I cannot say one way or another if they last the same in use.

 

[Dean]

Interesting. I have not had softer bars from 95% NaOH + 5% KOH. I have made several batches with dual lye, with many of them well over a year old at this point. Several are 6 months or older, as well. I have not got around to testing them one against another in terms of the same recipe as 95% vs 100% NaOH, however, so I cannot say one way or another if they last the same in use.

Have you used any of your DL soaps? Do you think they produce more lather?

 

[earlene]

Yes, I have tested some for handwashing. But as I said, I haven't really done a side-by-side test against the same recipe without 5% KOH. I'd have to go do that specifically to see if I notice a real difference. I'll need to look at which would qualify for a side-by-side test and give it a go.

 

[Obsidian]

I hadn't tested side by side either so I went and dug out my last bar of 6 month old duel lye and compared it to a 3 month old bar. The duel lye lathered faster but ultimately the same amount as the regular bar. I wonder if its because I use a lot of lard, its prone to small creamy bubbles.

 

[earlene]

I will test 2 different castiles side-by-side, but not immediately. Still digesting dinner. I am currently working on designing the label for this dual lye castile which is just now 13 months old. I have plenty of Castiles round here to choose from, and possibly one close to the same age. When I go back upstairs to print the test sheets for the next set of labels, I'll grab a Castile without KOH and report back.

 

[cmzaha]

My go to noln vegan soap is 45% tallow 25% lard made with dual lye. It lathers better than it did before using dual lye with a thick creamy bubbly lather. The rest of the percentage is CO, liquid oil and castor. My soaps are not softer than before and I now use dual lye for all soaps. My vegan soap is 45% palm oil and I noticed a decent difference when I went to dual lye, with the lather kicking up much better

 

[Susie]

I still use dual lye for all my soaps. There is a huge difference for me now that I have hard water.

 

[DeeAnna]

The results from the dual lye method really depend on the recipe -- it won't work with all recipes, as I have stressed in the past. If you use enough coconut or PKO to get decent lather with 100% NaOH, chances are very good the KOH won't make much improvement in lather.

What the added KOH is good for is recipes very high in oleic acid (castile type soap) to reduce the slime and recipes very high in stearic-palmitic acids (high lard-tallow-palm soap) for quicker lathering. If you add KOH to a recipe that has any reasonable amount of lauric-myristic acids, you're wasting your time.

Most of my recent recipes contain 60% lard and 10% coconut to give you an idea of the type of recipe that benefits from a bit of KOH. I don't see any increase in softness in the soap when using 5% KOH. My perception is the longevity is still decently good, but I haven't done any kind of objective study to know how much the life of the soap is shortened. There is a definite improvement in lather -- the quickness of lathering, additional large bubbles, and the total amount.

Also, the water quality is important. If I shower with water that is softened with our whole-house softener, I get the best results. If I shower with the moderately hard water direct from our well, the lather is greatly reduced whether I use a dual lye soap or an NaOH-only soap. Using a chelator like EDTA is another really helpful idea for getting the best lather if a person must use harder water for bathing.

 

[Dean]

The results from the dual lye method really depend on the recipe -- it won't work with all recipes, as I have stressed in the past. If you use enough coconut or PKO to get decent lather with 100% NaOH, chances are very good the KOH won't make much improvement in lather.

What the added KOH is good for is recipes very high in oleic acid (castile type soap) to reduce the slime and recipes very high in stearic-palmitic acids (high lard-tallow-palm soap) for quicker lathering. If you add KOH to a recipe that has any reasonable amount of lauric-myristic acids, you're wasting your time.

Most of my recent recipes contain 60% lard and 10% coconut to give you an idea of the type of recipe that benefits from a bit of KOH. I don't see any increase in softness in the soap when using 5% KOH. My perception is the longevity is still decently good, but I haven't done any kind of objective study to know how much the life of the soap is shortened. There is a definite improvement in lather -- the quickness of lathering, additional large bubbles, and the total amount.

Also, the water quality is important. If I shower with water that is softened with our whole-house softener, I get the best results. If I shower with the moderately hard water direct from our well, the lather is greatly reduced whether I use a dual lye soap or an NaOH-only soap. Using a chelator like EDTA is another really helpful idea for getting the best lather if a person must use harder water for bathing.

Thanks for sharing DeeAnna.

My recipe that is soft with KOH and hard without KOH is below. Do you think its too low in stearic-palmitic acids to see improvement in lather with KOH?

 

[earlene]

Yes, I have tested some for handwashing. But as I said, I haven't really done a side-by-side test against the same recipe without 5% KOH. I'd have to go do that specifically to see if I notice a real difference. I'll need to look at which would qualify for a side-by-side test and give it a go.

I mis-remembered. I DID do a side-by-side test, as I reported here for dual lye Castile.

What I have not done (that I can recall ATM) is a side-by-side testing of a multiple oil soap as dual lye against a control of the same recipe.

I will test 2 different castiles side-by-side, but not immediately. Still digesting dinner. I am currently working on designing the label for this dual lye castile which is just now 13 months old. I have plenty of Castiles round here to choose from, and possibly one close to the same age. When I go back upstairs to print the test sheets for the next set of labels, I'll grab a Castile without KOH and report back.

Since, I said above that I would do this, I went ahead and did another hand-washing test of the 13-month old dual lye Castile against a NaOH-only Castile of a similar age. I did not find one the exact same age, so used one that was 18 months old.

Testing Castiles for a difference in lather with or without 5%KOH is probably really not necessary because Castile produces a lot of lather anyway. Some people don't like Castile in the first place, and some don't like the lather than Castiles produce, so this may not be the kind of testing that a person who doesn't like Castiles would find helpful anyway. But that's what I said I would test, so here are my results.

18-month old Castile made with only NaOH: Bubbles are fast to appear. Lather is pleasant and abundant. Not snotty. I was unable to produce the snotty slime with this soap when I pull my hand away from the soap. Leaves my skin feeling quite nice for hours afterward.

13-month old Castile with 5% KOH (95% NaOH): Bubbles appear a bit more slowly. Lather isn't as pleasant as the longer cure Castile, but that is to be expected in my experience. Somewhat snotty still, although not overly much, a few very thin strings that break at about 1.5 inches from the bar, but this still only happens with the first washing. After wetting the bar a second time to try the test agian, there are no slime cables as I lift my hand away from the soap. (Until the next day when the soap has dried, then it does happen the first time, but not the second time.) Subjectively speaking, I don't find this to be a problem, because this is not something I normally do when I wash my hands.

So my conclusion is that the dual lye in Castile does not help with reducing snot in Castile soap any earlier than it already does as a NaOH-only Castile,with a sufficiently longer cure. For me, I find that curing for 18-24 months produces really good results and a Castile soap that is slime-free. I believe that was part of what I was trying to achieve.

Regarding the 'softer soap' issue mentioned by Dean on page 1 of this thread, I don't experience that with Castiles and so far have not experienced it with my other recipes.

The quote below is from another thread about dual lye Castile soap I made in 2016.

Reporting on my impressions of using this soap at 6 months cure with a comparison to 15-month cured Castile.

Single Lye Castile (15 months of age):
Copious large to medium bubbles; absolutely no slime; fairly creamy lather than starts a little slower and takes a bit longer to become creamy, but feels very good on my skin. After washing and rinsing, there seems to be a residual conditioning or nourishing feel to my skin that lasts nicely.
Notes about the bar & recipe: I made this with full water per SoapCalc's default. It is softer, not yet 'rock hard' like the pink bar below.

Dual Lye Castile (95% NaOH + 5% KOH) (6 months of age):
Slightly smaller, but abundant bubbles; copious thick and creamy lather; slime forms when I hold my palm flat on the bar and lift it away, breaking at about 1 to 1.5 inches from the surface as I lift my hand; HOWEVER, this slime goes away when I used the same bar twice and I had a hard time re-creating the slime after the initial one minute of soaping up my hands. After using this 6-month young Dual Lye Castile, my skin feel dryer than I like. Not as mild and not as 'conditioned' or 'nourished' or whatever that feeling is when a soap doesn't leave my hands feeling like they would benefit from some lotion.

 

[Dean]

I mis-remembered. I DID do a side-by-side test, as I reported here for dual lye Castile.

What I have not done (that I can recall ATM) is a side-by-side testing of a multiple oil soap as dual lye against a control of the same recipe.



Since, I said above that I would do this, I went ahead and did another hand-washing test of the 13-month old dual lye Castile against a NaOH-only Castile of a similar age. I did not find one the exact same age, so used one that was 18 months old.

Testing Castiles for a difference in lather with or without 5%KOH is probably really not necessary because Castile produces a lot of lather anyway. Some people don't like Castile in the first place, and some don't like the lather than Castiles produce, so this may not be the kind of testing that a person who doesn't like Castiles would find helpful anyway. But that's what I said I would test, so here are my results.

18-month old Castile made with only NaOH: Bubbles are fast to appear. Lather is pleasant and abundant. Not snotty. I was unable to produce the snotty slime with this soap when I pull my hand away from the soap. Leaves my skin feeling quite nice for hours afterward.

13-month old Castile with 5% KOH (95% NaOH): Bubbles appear a bit more slowly. Lather isn't as pleasant as the longer cure Castile, but that is to be expected in my experience. Somewhat snotty still, although not overly much, a few very thin strings that break at about 1.5 inches from the bar, but this still only happens with the first washing. After wetting the bar a second time to try the test agian, there are no slime cables as I lift my hand away from the soap. (Until the next day when the soap has dried, then it does happen the first time, but not the second time.) Subjectively speaking, I don't find this to be a problem, because this is not something I normally do when I wash my hands.

So my conclusion is that the dual lye in Castile does not help with reducing snot in Castile soap any earlier than it already does as a NaOH-only Castile,with a sufficiently longer cure. For me, I find that curing for 18-24 months produces really good results and a Castile soap that is slime-free. I believe that was part of what I was trying to achieve.

Regarding the 'softer soap' issue mentioned by Dean on page 1 of this thread, I don't experience that with Castiles and so far have not experienced it with my other recipes.

The quote below is from another thread about dual lye Castile soap I made in 2016.

Thanks for taking the time to retest and post results!

 

[DeeAnna]

...Do you think its too low in stearic-palmitic acids to see improvement in lather with KOH?...

I have no idea. I don't have any experience with soy wax in soap, I seldom make recipes with that much liquid fat, and I've never used sweet almond oil. You also say your soap is softer with 5% KOH and you experience other issues -- none of which I have seen from my soap. Given the big differences in how we soap and the results you get compared to what I see in my soap, I doubt it would be useful for me to try to assess your recipe.

 

[penelopejane]

So my conclusion is that the dual lye in Castile does not help with reducing snot in Castile soap any earlier than it already does as a NaOH-only Castile,with a sufficiently longer cure. For me, I find that curing for 18-24 months produces really good results and a Castile soap that is slime-free. I believe that was part of what I was trying to achieve.

Thank you for taking the time to do this experiment and to post the results.
I have done the same and for 12-18 month old castile I have come to the same conclusion as you. My family prefer castile with NaOH only and the main reason if for the feel of it. The dual lye has a glugginess to the lather. I don't find the KOH adds discernably to the lather or bubbles in fact I find the opposite.

Everytime I see another KOH thread I question my results and I retry some of my older soaps but the results are the same. I still prefer single lye castile even at 12 months old.

 

[earlene]

Thank you, penelopejane. I was thinking it was you who had also come up with the same results.

Out of curiosity, have you tried the dual lye method with any other soaping oils?

I actually did try it with a multiple-oil recipe in January of this year, but I didn't make the same recipe as an NaOH soap. I used the same recipe I had used for the Mermaid Tails soap in July of 2017. So they are 6 months apart. I am not sure comparing soaps cured 6 months to soap cured 12 months is a fair comparison when I want to know if the KOH made a difference.

And another soap I made last year for the Peacock challenge was also a dual lye. Although I didn't make a control soap with the same recipe, it is a recipe of a soap I've made several times before with only NaOH, so I can easily enough compare. I just have to find a soap as close in age as possible and do a test.

Well, looking back in my soap making notebooks, I only have that soap without the KOH a year older. So I don't know if that's a fair comparison either.

I guess I wasn't considering how I was going to do a fair comparison when I made those soaps.

 

[lsg]

I made my first dual lye soap today. It traced pretty fast, but that may have been the fragrance oil.

 

[redhead1226]

Thanks for sharing DeeAnna.

My recipe that is soft with KOH and hard without KOH is below. Do you think its too low in stearic-palmitic acids to see improvement in lather with KOH?

View attachment 31048

Dean - I notice many times ( even in a shave soap recipe) that you use Soy wax. I personally have never made soap with this ingredient and do not see if in soap recipes. Can you explain to me what you think it brings to your soap as I am unfamiliar?

 

[Dean]

Dean - I notice many times ( even in a shave soap recipe) that you use Soy wax. I personally have never made soap with this ingredient and do not see if in soap recipes. Can you explain to me what you think it brings to your soap as I am unfamiliar?

Hi Red.

It economically brings hardness and insolubility to vegan palm free soap becuz its mostly stearic acid.

Another benefit is a little goes a long way. 25% SW as the only hard “oil” sets quickly into rock hard soap so a higher % of liquid conditioning oils can be used.

Regarding palm...I visited a gibbon sanctuary this last year. The staff informed us that the primates are critically endangered due to deforestation...mostly for palm plantations. They said the best way to prevent extinction of wild gibbons is by avoiding palm oil products. I started checking ingredients and noticed palm in just about everything from skin products to processed food. I couldnt find a commercial palm free vegan soap so I embarked on the soaping journey.

I believe it was Earlene that turned me on to soy wax. Thanks Earlene!

BTW, today I reduced the water to 1.1:1 on a batch and it looks like it might have resolved the softness DL issue w/o increasing the SW. Still to early to unmold to know for sure.

 

[penelopejane]

Thank you, penelopejane. I was thinking it was you who had also come up with the same results.

Out of curiosity, have you tried the dual lye method with any other soaping oils?

I actually did try it with a multiple-oil recipe in January of this year, but I didn't make the same recipe as an NaOH soap. I used the same recipe I had used for the Mermaid Tails soap in July of 2017. So they are 6 months apart. I am not sure comparing soaps cured 6 months to soap cured 12 months is a fair comparison when I want to know if the KOH made a difference.

I guess I wasn't considering how I was going to do a fair comparison when I made those soaps.

I think you will notice the difference between a KOH soap and a non KOH multi oil soap even if separated by 6 months. Worth trying anyway. Don't compare anything with coconut oil as you won't get a feel for the different oils. CO makes bubbles and a different lather.

I am NOT good at soap comparisons. I like lather more than just bubbles, so bear that in mind. I don't get strings with any of my soap. All of my soap is high EVOO.
I have many KOH and non KOH multi oil (without coconut) recipes made around the same time, same recipe. I've also tested them against much older and much younger soaps and the answer, for me, seems to be the same.

The KOH might be marginally more bubbly but definitely not enough to matter. What really has turned me off the KOH is that even in multi oil (without coconut) recipes is the gloopy feel of the KOH soap and lather. It just doesn't feel like fresh lather. It is like there is gloop in the lather, if that makes sense.
The non KOH soaps have a nice clean, light, creamy lather and great bubbles.

 

[cmzaha]

I make almost all my soaps with dual lye and do not notice any kind of gloopy feel to the lather. Mine are a think creamy that now kicks up bubbles much easier. I am another that does not use high CO, in fact I tried to up my CO to 17% from the average of 10-15% and really dislike it, so back to the 10-15%

 

[Dean]

I make almost all my soaps with dual lye and do not notice any kind of gloopy feel to the lather. Mine are a think creamy that now kicks up bubbles much easier. I am another that does not use high CO, in fact I tried to up my CO to 17% from the average of 10-15% and really dislike it, so back to the 10-15%

Do u notice a lather or skin-drying difference between 10 and 15% CO? Ive gone as low as 15 but haven't tried 10 yet.