Can someone convince me that FOs are safe?

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These days many are synthetic but not all are bad. Just think about sugar they're natural but it can harm you the same as salt. Like me I can't take natural vitamin E after 12 hours of taken it I will be breathless like I have an asthma attack but I can take a synthetic vitamin E with no problem.
 
Regarding using FOs - buy from reputable suppliers. Read reviews. Make certain you can get the MSDS sheets from them - if they don't have them, or give you some BS answers about why they make their own, run away. I have found that cheap usually means just that - cheap, not quality, questionable ingredients and company policies. I have my preferred suppliers, if anyone is interested, PM me.
Most MSDS sheet will not tell all the ingredients in a fragrance. They may list a few. Comes under Trade Secrets
 
I do feel better the more I read... And I want to convince myself to use them, lol. There ate just so many brands and companies with so little information available. Are there specific companies that you guys know of that are more... Let's say, Health/environmentally conscious?

I know you're specifically talking about FO's, but I'll offer my two cents and maybe it will be helpful. :smile:

I'm still fairly new to the whole soaping thing and I came in wanting to go 'all natural'. After a lot of research, trial & error I've changed my thinking. I'm not saying that's a bad thing or you shouldn't, but I'll share my takeaway from my never-ending research.

'All natural', 'Environmentally friendly', 'chemical free' and anything in that general category are HUGE marketing buzzwords and some companies will stretch to the breaking point to slap it on their products.

To paraphrase one of the lovely folks here (please forgive me, I've long since forgotten who): 'arsenic is natural but that doesn't make it's safe'.

If you make B&B products you know that preservatives which are completely not natural make a product safer than if they were excluded (I understand even that can be controversial, but as far as I'm concerned I've seen enough to consider it a fact).

After looking at marketing of personal care products with a critical eye, I got a powerful reminder that companies tell you the things they think you want to hear in order to buy their product.

For example, St. Ives Mission statement on Facebook says: St. Ives believes the most powerful ingredients can’t be created in a lab. In formulating our products, we use the most effective, fresh ingredients sourced from nature – with no unnecessary chemicals.

First off, 'no unnecessary chemicals' is a ridiculous statement. As if other companies have the conversation "Our hand cream is fantastic, but the ingredients list is just too short. Go back to the lab, and find a few things that we have some extra of and throw them in..."

This is their ingredient list for Hydrate Cucumber Melon Body Lotion
Ingredients:

Aqua, Glycerin, Caprylic/Capric Triglyceride, Cetearyl Alcohol, Cetyl Alcohol, Glycine Soja (Soybean) Oil, Stearic Acid, Urea, Tocopheryl Acetate, Butyrospermum Parkii (Shea) Butter, Cucumis Sativus (Cucumber) Fruit Extract, Cucumis Melo (Melon) Fruit Extract, Dimethicone, Cyclopentasiloxane, Cyclohexasiloxane, Carbomer, PEG-100 Stearate, Parfum, Triethanolamine, BHT, Phenoxyethanol, Methylisothiazolinone, Caprylyl Glycol, Disodium EDTA,

That reminds me, I should water my Methylisothiazolinone and Cyclopentasiloxane plants. :wink:

My Mother has a bottle of Palmolive in her kitchen that says "Washes Away Bacteria from Hands" after I saw that I decided I needed to go look for some 'extra wet water' and possibly some light bulbs that 'brighten the darkness' if I could find them.

I know I'm picking on retail products and not suppliers, but at the end of the day it's the same thing. You have money to spend, they want it. Some companies will be upfront and honest, but you can't always tell who they are.

I've since decided to look at my ingredients individually not based on their source, but what they bring to the table and what if any risks they present. At the end of the day sometimes it still comes down to judgment, trial and error, because you can read 7 articles and get 15 different opinions. Still, that's part of the fun and the challenge to this kind of creative endeavor.
 
FO's are a fake imitation of something real, EO's are the real deal. It's like comparing some fresh picked strawberries to some sugar free strawberry candy. Sure the sugar free candy makes me think of strawberries and it's probably not harming me. But, the real strawberry is so much more satisfying and has some nutrients to boot.
 
I have made synthetic vanilla when I was back in the chem lab. Molecularly, it's the exact same as vanilla, but it lacks the "full body" flavor/smell as vanilla (the impurities in the pod give it more depth). Like what Earthen Step said, it's a fake imitation of something real. Personally, I have no problem using something that is the exact same molecular component as the real deal. I mean, H2O is H2O no matter how you get it.

My resistance to using fragrance oil lies with two factors. One, fragrance companies don't have to disclose their ingredients. Now there's phlalate-free fragrance? Well, what else is in there that I don't know about? Two, the people I sell to won't accept fragrance oils. So, I can either find a whole new market, or just please the people that are already buying... If you sell, that's something to consider.
 
FO's are a fake imitation of something real, EO's are the real deal. It's like comparing some fresh picked strawberries to some sugar free strawberry candy. Sure the sugar free candy makes me think of strawberries and it's probably not harming me. But, the real strawberry is so much more satisfying and has some nutrients to boot.
FOs use many components of scent that are derived from both natural and laboratory sources. They also replicate scents that you cannot obtain from essential oils. There is no strawberry EO. Soap is a wash off product. While I use essential oils all the time as fragrance, I also use high quality fragrance oils. They both wash down the drain.
 
So here's something that would be worth sharing ... because right now if you distill this down (no pun intended) to the core issues, nobody has said anything helpful. I know (again) all the preferences all the members have, some prejudices, and to be honest some snake oil sales pitches. What I don't know any more about after reading this is some tips on using EO's in soap. Like, maybe share some things that work well in soap? Because I experimented with them and after soaping they smell NOTHING like what I intended. Some don't smell at all.

Until someone shows me how I can get an EO in my finished soap effectively; I see no options to use anything but FO, and therefore discount out of hand any arguments that EO's are better.

I believe in better living through chemistry, and I also believe natural things are different as Girlishcharm points out. There's no question in my mind that the "impurities" create a character that is unachievable with current fragrance science. I don't currently have the choice to use EO's so if you want to proselytize for natural scents, I need some help pulling it off. :)
 
P.S. Did you know that arsenic is an essential nutrient for growth? The human body cannot live without it.

And hemlock is natural and will kill you.

Ricin, I suppose, could be considered a "natural product."

Lily of the Valley - check.

The other thing I would point out is that a lot of people seem to get wrapped around the axle regarding "chemicals." Everything that you eat, see, touch, breathe, and smell are chemicals.

Argh.

-Dave
 
The other thing I would point out is that a lot of people seem to get wrapped around the axle regarding "chemicals." Everything that you eat, see, touch, breathe, and smell are chemicals.

Argh.

-Dave

Don't get me wrong, anything can kill you -- anything. Regardless if it's natural or not, if it is used improperly, it can kill you.

I don't have a problem with "chemicals" especially re-created chemicals. That is, I don't have a problem with, say, distilling mud to get pure water. Or copying an exact molecular from nature.

I do have a problem with "chemicals" that aren't found in nature. While "everything that you eat, see, touch, breathe, and smell are chemicals", that does not mean that every atom on the periodic table is found in nature. Also, the combinations of some of those atoms (molecules) definitely aren't found in nature. While they may be seemingly harmless, I like long term studies before I put my trust in it. How long did it take to discover that hydrogenated oils weren't all that they were cracked up to be? Sure, hydrogen is a natural element, but not soybean oil with an extra H atom.

Someone had mentioned before that you *need* a synthetic preservative to make a lotion or it will go bad. The thing is, water and oil don't mix. Creating a synthetic substance to force them together in the first place is the problem. That is where you need another synthetic answer to solve the problem you initially created.

This whole comment wasn't necessarily directed at you, Dave. Just a general explanation because many people seem to use the line that not everything natural is good. In my experience, while not everything natural is good, synthetic seems to always be bad.
 
So here's something that would be worth sharing ... because right now if you distill this down (no pun intended) to the core issues, nobody has said anything helpful. I know (again) all the preferences all the members have, some prejudices, and to be honest some snake oil sales pitches. What I don't know any more about after reading this is some tips on using EO's in soap. Like, maybe share some things that work well in soap? Because I experimented with them and after soaping they smell NOTHING like what I intended. Some don't smell at all.

Until someone shows me how I can get an EO in my finished soap effectively; I see no options to use anything but FO, and therefore discount out of hand any arguments that EO's are better.

I believe in better living through chemistry, and I also believe natural things are different as Girlishcharm points out. There's no question in my mind that the "impurities" create a character that is unachievable with current fragrance science. I don't currently have the choice to use EO's so if you want to proselytize for natural scents, I need some help pulling it off. :)


Mention what you have tried and maybe we can help. I haven't had the issues you seem to be having. Try mixing deep and/or medium with high notes together. Citrus types scents seem to escape pretty easily if they don't have something hanging out with them. Lemongrass and Litsea stay around nicely for citrus scents (from my experience). Deep musky and woody or smokey EO's stay around nicely for me. I have never used Orange, Lemon or Lime alone -- I have read they don't stick around so I blend them with other things. I have found even if the EO dosn't have staying power, if it's blended with things that do then the notes still shine through.

*The scents do alter over the cure. Some scents fade a bit, some stick around more strongly. To me that's part of the fun (seeing how it comes out), and replicating what cures into a masterpiece.

Also to everyone on the whole EO vs FO, I don't care in the least if any of you love FO's. You truly have more options and can get some neat smells out of it. But to me, I just don't like the smells. I have smelled quite a few and much prefer EO's. Go with what you love and are comfortable with -- there is no wrong answer here IMO.

*I'm also not all that comfortable with them :p
 
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I apologize if this came off as pompous or something. That wasn't my intent. My only takeaway from that was intended to be 'do your own research and don't depend on the sales pitches to make an informed decision'.
Not at all! I was just teasing a bit. Any time someone gets on a soap box (and I do it most frequently) in my head I hear Gabby Johnson from Blazing Saddles yell "Raw Rawr!" :-D
 
There is a BIG argument that synthetic fragrances are causing allergies and sensitivities. Women's Voices for the Earth has a campaign asking manufacturers of b&b to at least declare their fragrance ingredients in labels. It might be a good place to start doing some research. I pinned their info graphic.

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/10203536632439965/
 
So here's something that would be worth sharing ... because right now if you distill this down (no pun intended) to the core issues, nobody has said anything helpful. I know (again) all the preferences all the members have, some prejudices, and to be honest some snake oil sales pitches. What I don't know any more about after reading this is some tips on using EO's in soap. Like, maybe share some things that work well in soap? Because I experimented with them and after soaping they smell NOTHING like what I intended. Some don't smell at all.

Until someone shows me how I can get an EO in my finished soap effectively; I see no options to use anything but FO, and therefore discount out of hand any arguments that EO's are better.

I believe in better living through chemistry, and I also believe natural things are different as Girlishcharm points out. There's no question in my mind that the "impurities" create a character that is unachievable with current fragrance science. I don't currently have the choice to use EO's so if you want to proselytize for natural scents, I need some help pulling it off. :)
Howsabout you start a thread about using EOs effectively in soap - because this is specifically about *F*Os. I can be very helpful with blends for EOs. Have a 50/50 eucalyptus/spearmint soap curing on the rack as we speak, along with about five other lovely but differently scented batches ;)


http://www.soapmakingforum.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/
 
There is a BIG argument that synthetic fragrances are causing allergies and sensitivities. Women's Voices for the Earth has a campaign asking manufacturers of b&b to at least declare their fragrance ingredients in labels. It might be a good place to start doing some research. I pinned their info graphic.

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/10203536632439965/
A good place to start doing research is an unbiased and authoritative source. It is not correct to say fragrances are causing allergies and sensitivities. It is however potentially correct to say that many people are allergic and sensitive to the chemicals in fragrances. It may seem like a minor difference but the devil is in the details. The first way implies that exposure to some chemicals induce unrelated allergic reactions. This has often been alleged (multiple chemical sensitivity or MCS) but not proven by any widely accepted, peer reviewed studies.

A fairly impartial (and at least peer-reviewed) article describes fragrances as the leading trigger for contact dermatitis symptoms (Bouchez, n.d.). They go on to point out that the rise, or apparent rise of allergic sensitivity reports, may simply because of the uptick of use (more use equals contact with more people with sensitivities.)

I have not seen anything in any authoritative source that indicates that synthetic compounds are any more or less likely to cause contact dermatitis. One of the compounds shavers come into contact with most frequently that commonly causes contact dermatitis is Benzaldehyde. This happens to be the chemical which makes almonds smell like almonds. One compound which creates perhaps the most universal allergic reactions in a majority of people is urushiol. This is found in mangoes, cashews, and of course poison ivy.

IANAD (I am not a doctor) but if something bugs you - don't use it. To go on to say that some entire class of products is bad because a single chemical component causes you discomfort is not just wrong, it's bad science.

Ref:
Bouchez, Colette (n.d.). Fragrance allergies: A sensory assault. WebMD. retrieved from: http://www.webmd.com/allergies/features/fragrance-allergies-a-sensory-assault
 
Howsabout you start a thread about using EOs effectively in soap - because this is specifically about *F*Os. I can be very helpful with blends for EOs. Have a 50/50 eucalyptus/spearmint soap curing on the rack as we speak, along with about five other lovely but differently scented batches ;)
Just as soon as I get done arguing here. :-D

I do like the mint/eucalyptus combo though! But tea tree/eucalyptus oil is an allergen and a poison! Eucalyptol is deadly in low doses! Okay now I'm just poking things with a pointy stick. :)
 
Just as soon as I get done arguing here. :-D

I do like the mint/eucalyptus combo though! But tea tree/eucalyptus oil is an allergen and a poison! Eucalyptol is deadly in low doses! Okay now I'm just poking things with a pointy stick. :)
LOL! I know you are. Thing is you can be very, very dangerous with essential oils. There is one soaper with a huge following making ridiculous claims about essential oils in her soaps that 'cure' things - all you have to do is keep it on your skin for two minutes. Ya. One of the EOs she's using is Pennyroyal. A great big, huge no-no, particularly for anyone who is pregnant. But she's got thousands, literally, who hang on her every word. I'll stick to pretty scents and wash them off, thank you very kindly.
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