Sequestering liquid soap: Does it improve over time?

Hey all!

I'm asking this question because I know you have to let bar soap sit, and I have seen that you should let liquid soap sequester for a week or so also, or am I wrong on this?

I guess, I have been assuming that liquid soap sequestering is really only for clarity.. until today. I had used the soaping 101 videos on youtube for castile soap which was about 80 olive/10 castor/10 coconut. I was dissapointed by the amount of cleaning power, bubbles and such that this recipie provided. I did like how conditioning it was. So today I go to grab the bottle I made, oh about a month ago, and I got a lot more suds than I remember!

So, when sequestering, what things are normally trying to be achieved beyond allowing soap to clarify? Will the PH increase/decrease? Will the color change? Could the soap become thicker? (assuming it's bottled and no evaporation).

I don't know the answer to this exactly, other hten sequestering for a couple weeks is what they call curing for liquid soap, and gives suds power. It's like curing soap for 6 weeks.

I saw a posting that people will actually bag the paste and let THAT sit for a couple weeks. I would think that it would be more effective if diluted, yes?

If the paste has tested neutral, then sequestering is not necessary. I think some people think that sequestering will give the soap a chance to clear. I found this quote from the link below:

"What is happening is that the insoluble soaps will settle out of solution. Insoluble soaps are the soaps that came from the steric and palmitic acids. Most whole oils have one or both of these fatty acids. They are responsible for the clouding of the soap and will fall to the bottom during the sequestering period"

http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/610109192/m/571102121

Sequestering is not necessary but it sure helps with the clarity of the soap. I find two weeks are better than one.

I think my LGS gets better (less drying) after a couble of months in the basement.

jcandleattic made a batch of the glycerin liquid soap about two weeks ago. She wasn't sure about it when it was about 3 days but she just loves it now so yes, it does benefit from a curing period.

Oh, and 100% olive oil bar soap doesn't do much bubbling, but it still cleans, so I'm not surprised that a 100% olive oil liquid soap doesn't bubble much. Soap cleans, whether you have a low creamy lather or a big bubbly lather. My 80% OO / 20% cocoa butter is a low creamy lather that will get some bubbles going on but it feels pretty wonderful, so again, I'm not shocked by the amount of lather with 80% OO.

Next on my list is 60% sunflower, 15% castor, 15% coconut and 10% olive. Or just 70% sunflower and drop the olive oil LOL

Dorado said:

I think my LGS gets better (less drying) after a couble of months in the basement.

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What percentage of cleansing oils do you use in your recipie that is less drying after a couple months?

And thanks for all the insight from everyone. I was just so surprised when this what i first though was a crappy recipie became actually quite nice after a couple weeks sitting on my kitchen counter. It was a beautiful amber color right from the get go and was thickened and ready to go but after sitting there it became so much nicer. I have some other recipies that I made recently that I like but think could be better. Maybe in a couple weeks they'll improve by sitting there

Just to clarify Mildreds.naturals - Castile soap is only 100% olive oil. Unfortunately some commercial soapmakers have perverted the term to mean high olive oil soaps, but I am a purist.

I believe that all soaps benefit from a curing time. Cream soap is neutral at the time the soap has finished its cook but it needs at least 3 months to cure/rot. Some of the best cream soaps I have are over a year old.... So I would think (logically speaking) that the longer the cure or resting time the better the soap will be.

Mildreds.naturals said:

I saw a posting that people will actually bag the paste and let THAT sit for a couple weeks. I would think that it would be more effective if diluted, yes?

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Mildred, I forget where I first read about doing that, but I'm half-planning on
putting "most" of my paste in a jar in the fridge and dilute it as I use it
instead of all at once. I'm hoping it will keep longer that way, only because
I still have no idea how long the diluted soap will last (even with a
preservative in it). That way, I can take out a few ounces to make a
bottle of whatever I'm needing and scent it or not depending on who it's for.

Mildreds.naturals said:

What percentage of cleansing oils do you use in your recipie that is less drying after a couple months?

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I use 50% eco VirginCanolaOil, 45% eco CoconutOil and 5% CastorOil.
Superfat 1%, dilution app 60%, 45gr honey in dilutionwater.
Must say, the parts with 2% FO were more drying than the natural.
Forgot about the soap, 2 month later = wonderful

VanessaP said:

jcandleattic made a batch of the glycerin liquid soap about two weeks ago. She wasn't sure about it when it was about 3 days but she just loves it now so yes, it does benefit from a curing period.

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Yep, and now that it is a little over a month old, it's even better and so less drying that it was even at the 2 week mark.
And it was a simple easy recipe 70% sunflower, 30% coconut. Easy peasy and makes a lovely soap once cured.

I am a true believer of curing all soap no matter the method of making it - LS, GLS, HP, CP, CPOP, RTCP, etc., etc. -- you name it. IMO they ALL need a good long cure to be at their optimum performance.

jcandleattic said:

Yep, and now that it is a little over a month old, it's even better and so less drying that it was even at the 2 week mark.
And it was a simple easy recipe 70% sunflower, 30% coconut. Easy peasy and makes a lovely soap once cured.

I am a true believer of curing all soap no matter the method of making it - LS, GLS, HP, CP, CPOP, RTCP, etc., etc. -- you name it. IMO they ALL need a good long cure to be at their optimum performance.

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I made the same above recipie but olive oil instead of sunflower. I had a 3% hempseed oil superfat and I diluted it to about 20%, added about 7% glycerin with 3% table salt. It got SO thick after I let it sit over night. The salt clumps wouldn't absorb as easily because I tried a new method: just adding plain salt rather than saltwater. I think I will start doing this from now on just to get it as thick as possible with a higher dilution rate. If a couple weeks from now this recipie works out well, i'll let you know!

Mildreds.naturals said:

I made the same above recipie but olive oil instead of sunflower. I had a 3% hempseed oil superfat and I diluted it to about 20%, added about 7% glycerin with 3% table salt. It got SO thick after I let it sit over night. The salt clumps wouldn't absorb as easily because I tried a new method: just adding plain salt rather than saltwater. I think I will start doing this from now on just to get it as thick as possible with a higher dilution rate. If a couple weeks from now this recipie works out well, i'll let you know!

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I used the glycerin liquid soap method, so my paste was made with 100% glycerin, no water. It was initially made with a 3% SF, and I didn't add any SF at point of dilution.
After much experimentation I found that the dilution rate I liked best was 1:1 water to paste with .3% germal plus added for a preservative. (i think it was .3% anyway, I'd have to check my notes, but I'm at work, so can't)
Also, to make the dilution process faster next time I'm also going to try adding some Sodium Lactate to my dilution. At least I've heard it makes dilution go even faster. We'll see.

I love the scent of this recipe naturally so I didn't put any scent in it and kept it as is.

I had made liquid dish soap about 2 months ago and really wasn't impressed, at first. I stuck it under the sink and there it sat for the last 2 months. I ran out of my 7th Generation so grabbed "My" soap. I was amazed at a) how much more bubbly it was then before and b) how it did not feel as drying as before. I did not notice much change in clarity as it was pretty clear amber before.

Since I have hard water, I can not just squirt some in the sink and fill it up with water. I have to squirt on to sponge with a little water and scrub the item, then rinse. It cleans wonderfully and a benefit I've noticed that it cleans the grout on my counters better then most cleaners I've tried, and there are no crazy chemicals or gloves needed : ) So in short, even though it was a hassle and a half to make, I will make it again and sequester for 2 months, suppose I better get on it so I don't run out!

I didn't read through all the comments but I'd like to give my few cents worth, if you don't mind.

Sequestering, according to Catherine Failor's book, Making Liquid Soaps, is only for clarity. The process we use to make liquid soap paste, hot process, literally cooks out the lye through the saponification process. Any extra is then neutralized with your choice of citric acid, Boric Acid or Borax. I've recently found that I don't need to neutralize at all because I cook my soaps overnight at temps in the 170s..or the warm setting on my crock. I'm more likely to run into the problem of excess fatty acids and clarity issues because I like shea butter and that has a lot of unsaponifiables.

As for Castile soap:L TRUE Castile soap is 100% olive oil soap. Some like to say that it's Olive and and a small amount of Coconut oil, but it is in fact, just olive oil. As we all know, the coconut oil adds bubbles. But the bubbles aren't what cleans. I make Castile soap just for household purposes: laundry, dish detergent, cleaning my snake and rat cages. Things like that. Even without the suds, it does a wonderful squeaky clean job.

And as for whether to dilute now or later: I always dilute my whole batch now so it's ready to use later. All i have to add are any other essential or super fat oils..depending on what I'm using it for. Preservatives aren't needed because of the high alkalinity in our soap to begin with. The PH never goes below 8.5 or 9, and if you do manage to do that, you run into problems like separation. So there is no need to make room in the fridge for it either. All mine have sat in the laundry room in reused gallon jugs and other containers I clean out or buy to store it all in. But if you really want that preservative, go for things like Vitamin E (mixed Tocopherols), Grapefruit Seed, Rosemary and Tea Tree oils. They're antioxidants, antifungal and antibacterial. Which is all the things a commercial preservative does; inhibits growth of pathogens by preventing reaction to oxygen, and/or acts as a germicide. The only thing I've ever had go bad is my home made conditioners. I'm still working on getting those right.

I agree with a lot of what you have to say White Tiger but if someone feels they need a preservative then they really should be using a real one. Unfortunately Vitamin E is simply an antioxidant and essential oils are going to work as a true preservative. There are some great ones out there and if you are wanting something natural you can go with Geoguard Ultra which is approved by ECOcert.

I don't preserve my liquid soap, it doesn't provide an environment conducive to bacteria or mold. However there have been reports of mold showing up above the soap line in the bottle. I know there are some that feel and are rather determined that LS requires it.

On the point that the lye has been used up or is neutralized when you look at cream soap or CP/HP the lye is no longer present after saponification but the soap still needs some cure time allowing it to become milder.

It is wonderful to see someone else that understands what castille truly is! Yay!!!!

See that's the thing about antioxidants. They inhibit the oxidation of other molecules that therefore halts, or in the least, reduces the chain reactions that causes molecular deterioration. Apply this principle to our craft. Add an antioxidant with an antifungal/antibacterial and you'll be good to go. It's the same concept used in the commercial business, only with synthetic preservatives. In fact, my favorite commercial bath products are all natural and made my Shea Moisture. And their preservative? Mixed tocopherols...Vitamin E. Unless they're not disclosing their full ingredient list.

Whitetiger, I'm sorry it has been proved in our industry that it simply doesn't work that way. You can add an antioxidant but that is simply going to slow down the rancidity of the oils. You cannot use enough essential oil to actually preserve the product. In a leave on product you need to be beneath 1.5% and even at that it can be therapeutic for some people.

I can't address your products that you like to buy, but other than soap or a straight oil/butter combination you must have a preservative in it. I see a lot of DIY sites tell you that you don't have to and if you are using it just for yourself it is only your health you are risking. IF you are selling then you must add a preservative in order to be compliant.