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ZAP - yes, ZAP -no - SAME BATCH - how possible is that?

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volya

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One week ago I made 2 batches of soap -the base was the same, the additives just were different. First batch (Tangerine) was in wooden log mold (that I cut later), the second batch (Coffee) was in silicone individual bar mold. The Tangerine didn't zap after 2 days, the Coffee still zaps. Also, it has slight white bloom (I am not sure if this is ash or lye, cause never seen it). I tried to follow whipped soap instructions and the butters were whipped, but after I added lye solution, it lost fluffiness and looked viscous like regular CP. But I refrigerated it (still believing it will be whipped ) and took off the fridge after 24 hours. Since I'm new to soapmaking, I have no idea why the Coffee zaps and the Tangerine doesn't. Maybe somebody here has a guess what went wrong with the second Coffee batch? Also, why my soap didn't whip after adding lye solution? I would appreciate your opinions on these 2 puzzles I currently try to solve.
Here is the recipe if that helps:
Palm Kernel - 25 oz
Palm - 30 oz
Coconut - 7 oz
Shea - 15 oz
Soybean oil -8 oz
Macadamia oil - 15 oz
Lye - 13.84 oz
Water - 33 oz
8% SF.

Thank you!
 
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volya

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I split the same batch and added different additives to both - essential oils and herbs.
 

melstan775

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Did you try pH testing them? It's possible the zap you feel is just icky soap taste.
 

volya

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I didn't ph test them. Should I test when it's liquid before pouring or I can test even now (I have some strips that I never used yet). It's not icky soap taste for sure, because it bites and the other batch, as you said, icky soap taste :)
Thank you.
 

melstan775

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I don't know what to say about that. as long as the ph comes up to less then 10, it should be okay because in cosmetic making, an acid ph really means a low alkeline ph, or, any number under 10.
 

AlchemyandAshes

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Did your log mold soap gel and your individual molds NOT gel? That would explain the zap. Non gelled soaps can take longer to saponify and will therefore zap longer.
 

volya

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Did your log mold soap gel and your individual molds NOT gel? That would explain the zap. Non gelled soaps can take longer to saponify and will therefore zap longer.
Both batches were put in the freezer and was not gelled.
I just measured the PH, and it's 8 for both.
I hope that the zapping will go eventually.

Does somebody here knows the answer for my second question about the whipping problem I had (see the first original post). Or maybe it's better to start a new thread?

Thank you!
 

judymoody

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The pH of CP soap generally is around 10, give or take a bit. If pH is 8 it shouldn't zap. My first thought was the same as Shawnee's - ungelled soap will zaplonger because the saponification is delayed.

What temperature did you soap at? It's possible that your lye solution got too cool and crystals began to form.

I ran your recipe through soap calc and the lye amount checks out. Perhaps your scale is off or you mismeasured one of your ingredients?

Also, probably not the case here, some FOs and EOs can produce a tingle. Probably not coffee, but I once made a blend that included cassia and clove EOs and I got a bit of zap, or so I thought. Turned out it was the spicy EOs!

ETA: I'm curious about your recipe - it is relatively high for cleansing and low for conditioning. You could probably get the same results with respect to fatty acids using the basic coconut/palm/olive oil/castor. Macadamia oil is pricey!
 

volya

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The pH of CP soap generally is around 10, give or take a bit. If pH is 8 it shouldn't zap. My first thought was the same as Shawnee's - ungelled soap will zaplonger because the saponification is delayed.

What temperature did you soap at? It's possible that your lye solution got too cool and crystals began to form.

I ran your recipe through soap calc and the lye amount checks out. Perhaps your scale is off or you mismeasured one of your ingredients?

Also, probably not the case here, some FOs and EOs can produce a tingle. Probably not coffee, but I once made a blend that included cassia and clove EOs and I got a bit of zap, or so I thought. Turned out it was the spicy EOs!

ETA: I'm curious about your recipe - it is relatively high for cleansing and low for conditioning. You could probably get the same results with respect to fatty acids using the basic coconut/palm/olive oil/castor. Macadamia oil is pricey!
thank you, judymoody!
The lye was about 100 F when I mixed with oils. If the lye crystals were formed - what should I do now? Should I re-batch? The zapping is slight and I still think it will be gone later. The scale is fine as well as measurements, I'm sure.
I took the oils on hand that were close to expiration (incl Macadamia), so the recipe is such as this :)
 
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new12soap

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I just measured the PH, and it's 8 for both.
If you used a test strip it is pretty unlikely that the pH of your soap is 8. As the link I posted above laid out, a strip will NOT accurately read soap because it is by nature a surfactant. You could use those strips to test 20 different batches of soap and they may very well all read 8, but the soaps themselves may range anywhere from 9 to 11. Please do not rely on pH strips to tell you if your soap is safe, they do not work.

As Judymoody said, the pH of CP soap is usually around 10, give or take.

Melstan, I don't really know what your source is for that information, there are soaps that are over a pH of 10 that are perfectly fine. If that is indeed the case and people are refering to a pH of under 10 as being acidic and that anything under 10 is fine because that is less alkaline, then yes that would be very confusing. As far as cosmetics go, they are a very different creature than soap (FDA reqs aside), and I am not very well versed in them, but whereas a soap will ALWAYS be alkaline many cosmetic preparations are acidic and have a pH under 7, such as lotions and hair conditioner.

Voyla, sorry for the sidetrack on your thread, I just want to discourage you from relying on pH strips. As for your soap, I agree with what others have said that it is probably because the soap did not gel. It could be connected to the oils, but again, as Judymoody said those seem unlikey culprits. Wait a few more days and try it again (zap testing, not pH strips) before you give up on it.

As for your method possibly being the culprit, I have never made whipped soap so I cannot comment on that. The only possible way I can think of that would matter would be if your lye was not thoroughly and completely distributed thru all the oils and that seems really unlikely. I'm going w gel.
 

melstan775

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If you used a test strip it is pretty unlikely that the pH of your soap is 8. As the link I posted above laid out, a strip will NOT accurately read soap because it is by nature a surfactant. You could use those strips to test 20 different batches of soap and they may very well all read 8, but the soaps themselves may range anywhere from 9 to 11. Please do not rely on pH strips to tell you if your soap is safe, they do not work.

Melstan, I don't really know what your source is for that information, there are soaps that are over a pH of 10 that are perfectly fine. If that is indeed the case and people are refering to a pH of under 10 as being acidic and that anything under 10 is fine because that is less alkaline, then yes that would be very confusing. As far as cosmetics go, they are a very different creature than soap (FDA reqs aside), and I am not very well versed in them, but whereas a soap will ALWAYS be alkaline many cosmetic preparations are acidic and have a pH under 7, such as lotions and hair conditioner.

I can see how it would be confusing because people look at the pH scale and see <7 = acid, >7 alkaline. But as a licensed working cosmetologist with a science degree (and going back in fall for a chemistry degree), I can tell you what cosmetic chemists consider acidic is 10 and under. It goes back to the invention of cold wave perms. The first acid-balanced perms were truly acidic but because of the low pH, they didn't hold very long. Thousands of formulas later, an acidic perm has a pH balance of 8-10. It isn't truly acidic, it is just low alkaline. There are tons of cosmetics that are formulated this way, some of them mellow, some of them don't, but a low alkaline cosmetic is fine on most people unless you have some sensitivity issue that even slightly caustic (and conversely highly-acidic), substances cause you to break out. for the purposes of this argument, I am including soap because it touches the skin. The pH test should be fine. although come fall I might put the pH test to work myself just to see the results. As a scientist I yield that there could always be room for error in any experiment and what we think is true, may not be.
 
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