Why the hostility from cold and hot process soapers? A brief encounter

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Equestrian

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I was talking with a person about the soaps I make. Yes it is melt and pour, but I make sure to use detergent free high quality bases. Honestly my skin, and my friends skin love the stuff more then cold and hot processed I have bought in the past, but that is neither here nor there. The person was very loudly telling everyone at the holiday party that MP is crap and not real soap. I have looked up guidelines for soap and SFIC and Brambleberry premium bases fall under the term soap.

So why the hate about it fromthe other person? I have also seen lots of posts on the internet from CO and HP saying that MP is no better for you then store bought.
 

Obsidian

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I've got to admit, I'm kind of a CP snob too. Until recently, my only experience with M & P was a cheap brand and it was terrible. Yesterday I bought a nice detergent free bar (base from WSP) and while its pretty nice, it leaves me feeling much like store bought soap. I do have to wonder what the chemicals, even in detergant free are doing to my skin.

I also have a hard time with M & P being labeled handmade. It like making a boxed cake and calling it made from scratch. No doubt that M & P take a certain skill set. I could never make the pretty designs I see and am so envious of not to mention the time involved.
I don't necessarily feel one is better then the other.

As far as people who are vocal about it at shows, they are either jealous, ignorant or just plain nasty and trying to drive business away from you. I would never by from any vender who was bad mouthing another vendor like that. Its not only bad business but shows a lack of character.
The craft show I went too had 4 soaps stands and the M & P gals had the nicest display and were the most knowledgeable about their product. Since they are local, I plan to buy more soap from them.
 

Cherry Pit Soap Works

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I as well am "cp snob".

Can't help it. Ive used it all and I always come back to CP soap. I don't think melt and pour is "crap". But I don't think it's near the quality of handmade, from scratch soap. But I say to each their own, and if you love it, then who cares what that person says. It's all about enjoying the making!
 

Soap Culture

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Cold shoulder

I am new to the whole craft fair circuit and I met the same disdain at the first show I did. I was totally taken aback. However, at the second show I met several CP soap makers and they were wonderful. I hope your next encounter goes better.
 

kikajess

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A few years ago, I went through a Melt & Pour phase. I really enjoyed it. The ease of M&P made soap making incredibly fun and fearless. But actually using the M&P soaps I made was never as wonderful as I wanted it to be compared to CP or HP soaps I used. I got my bases from BB, so I know they were good, but not good enough for me. My biggest complaint is the M&P soaps I made melted too quickly in the shower. They felt soft and slimy; not something I ever looked forward to.

On the other hand, I have made CP soaps that are very drying to me, or smell horrible, or have terrible textures. I am new at CP making, but every batch is a learning experience for me, and I am love, love, loving being in complete control of every ingredient I use. I have every confidence in myself that I will make a conditioning, long-lasting bar of soap that I look forward to using in every shower.

My preference is a personal one. However, I would not bad-mouth M & P soaps because I know first hand the passion and creativity that can go into M&P soaps. I'm sorry you had to go through such a negative experience. The type of person who badmouths other people's efforts are people who don't have anything to offer themselves. Keep at it. Haters gonna hate!
 

jcatblum

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I think some M&P soaps look amazing. For me the issue is customers not being educated in varieties of soap. They think there is soap made with lye & soap made with lard & soap made with goats milk. Also there is a bunch of bad M&P. A specialty vendor that grows lavender & uses the extract in M&P. Supporting the locals, I pay $5 for a bar, unwrap it & my eyes burn from the overuse of the EO then 2 wks later the dry bar of soap is sweating.
In all fairness same thing can happen with any type of soap vendor. ImageUploadedBySoap Making1386564108.922432.jpg
 

hellogorgeous

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I love the creativity that goes into mp soap. Some are so pretty and there's tons you can do with it that you can't with cp. BUT my skin hates it. I've tried numerous bases over the years and haven't really liked any of them. I totally agree with the comment about box cake mix vs from scratch. There's an obvious difference and ill always be a from scratch girl. I can formulate my cp soap how I wish and my skin is so thankful. :) still, they should not have been so mouthy and vocal about it. Some ppl have no filters.
 

lsg

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I have recently started making my own M&P base, experimenting with cucumber and avocado oils and shea butter. It is fun and fairly easy. Once I discovered how creative one could be with M&P soaps, I was hooked. I still make CP soap, but have branched out using M&P also. Don't let the negative attitude of others bother you, just be proud of your product.:wink:
 

ourwolfden

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I would probably never buy melt and pour unless it was a fabulous piece I wanted for decoration or for inspiration. That being said I love the melt and pour I make. I mostly use BB bulk goat’s milk or BB Shea Butter and I love the way it makes my skin, hair, and face feel. So far I have only been able to try 2 bars of CP I have made and while I’m in love with one the other I like more as a hand soap, not a full body soap. I would be leery of selling m&p just because so many people (like my Grandma I have gifted bars to) will unwrap them and just let them sit on the counter to me that is just asking for the soap to get covered in glycerin dew drops and then not understand what happened.

Just my 2 cents.
 

The Efficacious Gentleman

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I'd like to say at the outset that I love what people do with M&P, it blows my mind in many cases with how creative it all is.

That said, unless you're making your own base (and from here on, M&P refers to people who do not make their own bases) you are not actually making soap - you're melting and pouring soap. The soap is already made, you're adding FOs, EOs, colours and making something amazing - but you're not making soap.

Enhancing soap, yes. Making soap, no.

You can argue that without the enhancements it's not actually soap - but then people who make plain soap will beg to differ, I'm sure.

I think that is why a lot of CP/HPers can get annoyed - "Homemade Soap" on a stand for M&P, with things that look stunning and impossible with CP/HP bringing in all the customers who prefer to get something that looks a lot better, costs the same but is still "homemade soap" could bring the CP/HP sellers to the point of standing there exasperated yelling out "But it's NOT HOMEMADE SOAP!" until the men in white coats come and take them away.

If I buy a plain sponge cake and pour chocolate over it, have I got a homemade cake?

To conclude, I understand the issues and would most likely feel frustrated seeing an M&P "homemade soap" stand taking customers that are buying something that isn't what they expect it to be. But if it's properly marked and people are buying it because of the wonderful work that is done with it and not because it's "homemade", I love to admire the mind-blowing ideas that M&Pers turn in to scented reality.
 

TVivian

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If I were a vendor at a craft show or farmers market, I would be annoyed if another booth was selling M&P for the same price as I was selling CP or HP soap. Especially since most consumers really don't know the difference. I guess I would feel compelled to "educate" the masses hahaha.. .. Which might seem like bad mouthing.. (Insert nervous chuckle)
 

dixiedragon

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I agree with the posters who say it's not handmade soap. It's hand-poured soap, it's hand-decorated soap, but it's not handmade. It was made in a factory.


Another issue for me is that some MPers (not all, not even many, but some) really don't understand soap at all, so they are selling soap and telling people that their soap doesn't have lye, and that those other soaps do, and lye is bad.

I feel like comparing MP to CP and OP should be like comparing apples to oranges. But the average customer can't tell the difference, so they are comparing the appearence of MP to the appearance of CP, but they aren't able to compare effectiveness, etc.
 

gurdeep

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I make mp soap and would like to see cp's do the same design work all it comes down to is marketing everything has it's place and who is to say no is not soap or handmade it does not make it's self
 

The Efficacious Gentleman

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Gurdeep, please see my post - the soap is not handmade. It might not make itself, but unless you're combining a lye with oils then it isn't being made by you, either. The soap is bought, melted and turned in to stuff. Awesome stuff, really amazing stuff that is great and totally has a place.

CP and HP can't do the same sorts of things as M&P, that is very clear. But CP/HP is homemade soap.

As I said, I think that's where the problem comes in when the reasoning is - people who produce M&P products make them, at home. It's soap. So therefore it's homemade soap. But the soap was not made by the person selling the product.

I don't know what word would be best for marketing, instead of "homemade". "Hand Crafted Designs" might be a more accurate term, or something else that makes it clear that the base was not home made. But then it's harder to market, makes it confusing for the customers, which would hamper sales.

As I said, I understand the frustration on both sides, but I'm not looking for a Sharks/Jets Montagues/Capulets sort of thing here.
 

gurdeep

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You are right to a degree I use the handcrafted because I made it and crafted the design same as someone making cookies from a ready mix but let's not fight over wording but have fun
 

cmzaha

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We do both and I sell mp as well as cp and sometimes even better. A good quality mp base makes a huge difference. Our supplier happens to make a fantastic mild sls free mp base that we even allow my 5 yr old grandbaby to use, we are very picky what she uses, and our supplier actually customized the base to our specs. She goes through a minimum of a pallet of mp a year and that is a lot of mp! My daughter is epileptic and will not risk working with lye, besides she does beautiful mp work and I do the cp. She is epileptic and will not risk working with lye. Most customers refer to mp as glycerin and I feel no need to correct. My customers are aware we do not make the base, but it is made for us. When selling at markets to make money believe me it is best to cover all areas, since selling cp only will not cut it at weekly farmer markets and I have customers that only want mp. Believe it or not some people cannot use cp soap they need mild surfacant soaps, I being one of those people unless it is a salt bar.
We also do not call our mp homemade soap, I explain it is a very mild base made for us
 
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cmzaha

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I have recently started making my own M&P base, experimenting with cucumber and avocado oils and shea butter. It is fun and fairly easy. Once I discovered how creative one could be with M&P soaps, I was hooked. I still make CP soap, but have branched out using M&P also. Don't let the negative attitude of others bother you, just be proud of your product.:wink:
This is on my "bucket list" of things to do this year. My daughter makes a product that uses mp base and only has to melt once, so we are going to work on making our own.
 

judymoody

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This is a very interesting discussion.

I know a CP soap maker who can't use her own product because her skin doesn't tolerate the relatively higher pH. So she has fomulated her own detergent-based bars based on mild surfactants and they work great for her.

Just as not all M&P bases are created equal, the same can be said of CP. I neither make nor buy M&P. But I have bought or gotten CP bars in swaps that really dry out and/or irritate my skin or are so heavily scented that they made me feel ill. It took a year or two for me to formulate a soap that is both cleansing enough for my husband, not too drying for me, and is mild enough for my eczema-prone teenage daughter.

I think there are two aspects to this debate. The first is the perception that lye-based CP soap is more "natural" and M&P is full of nasty chemicals. Again, bases vary tremendously and not all chemicals are evil or harmful. For example, I use synthetic surfactacts to make shampoo bars because CP soap does not play nicely with my hair. That doesn't mean that I reach first for the sodium laurel sulfate.

The second is the distinction that Efficacious Gentleman and others have made that the crafting process IS different. M&P is not "making" soap from raw materials. Yet the crafting process can be as intricate or time consuming, if not more, as making CP soap from lye, water, and oils. It depends what aspect of the process you emphasize. While I strive to make pretty CP soap it is not nearly as elaborate as the multi-layered and embedded M&P creations I see at craft fairs. As long as the creative process and ingredients are represented honestly, I don't see a problem with calling it hand "crafted."

In the end, bashing somebody else's product is tacky and mean-spirited. There is room for both processes as well as mutual respect for each. It is possible to elevate your own process without putting down others.

Just my 2 cents.
 

Scentapy

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I am not weighing in... just sharing a story to point out the ignorance of people:

I had a guy go into one of the stores where my soap is sold and he was examining them all and asking questions. The store owner explained that I make my soap with either EO's or FO's and some are CP and some are HP.

Ignorant comment # 1was "Hot process is NOT handmade soap. I used to be a very successful soapmaker and I can tell you that hot process means all she did was bought a base and melted it."

Ignorant comment #2: "You can't make soap with Coconut Milk, it will curdle". :roll::roll::roll:

NO JOKE people, this is what the "successful soapmaker" told the store owner about my soap. Then I had to explain that he had no idea what he was talking about.
 
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