Why is my liquid soap so drying?

[Mildreds.naturals]

Hello all!

This is my first post, thanks for the great info on here!

Here is my problem:
I've been making liquid soap and have no desire to make bar soap. My first few batches were competely botched because I didn't have the right ingredients and didn't read enough (I actually tried making liquid soap with Sodium Hydroxide!) However, I'm now much better educated and understand the science behind making liquid (and subsequently bar) soap.

My problem is the soap I make is very drying to my skin, I figured it was because I used a lot of coconut oil. I know that it can dry your skin if used in high quantities. I made my first coconut based soap right away when it arrived as I was very excited. I used the soapcalc.net and added an extra 8% lye so my soap would be crystal clear and not cloudy. Saponification was easy (glycerin instead of water) and I was able to cook to neutrality (or at least until the phenolphthalein test was only the faintest of light pink).

I diluted the soap to somewhere between 33-38%. It seemed a little runny still, but I used table salt to thicken (Thickening with table salt is awesome!)

Here is my recipie:

Coconut 35%
Soybean 25%
Pure olive oil 20%
Castor oil 20%

I then made a few variations after using Hemp seed oil and changing percentages so that there are oils with more conditioning (more soybean or olive oil, for example) but I'm still getting a dry effect. What might I be doing wrong? Your help is appreciated!

 

[hoegarden]

If you are making liquid soap, I don't think the CO need to be that high. Since the soap sups will be dissolved anyway.

The next thing to look at is castor oil. Not every skin react well with castor oil. I have come across before that people mention that castor oil dry their skin.

Additional lye is actually quite harmful to skin as you have lesser oil to react. Does that mean you are rubbing the addtional potash on yourself? Usually people go for lye discount. are you sure that you add more lye instead of lesser lye?

When the soap sup is dissolve the mixture itself will usually be clear. KOH give the soap sup a super gel like look.

 

[Mildreds.naturals]

Can you please explain to me what Soap Sup means, i'm not familiar with that acronym or word. I"m new so forgive my ignorance

Regarding the Lye:

It is my understanding that KOH has a certain percentage of impurities, around 5-10% so when formulating liquid soap it is customary to ADD extra lye. If I were to not add the extra lye, there may be a chance that the soap will be cloudy depending on the oils used is what i've come to understand. I know I can neutralize the extra lye with citric acid so that you are not rubbing lye on your skin. Also, I have read that with hot process liquid soap you can "cook to neutrality" which is what I have been doing. I have used phenolphthalein drops to test after cooking to keep my soap at a safe level and they test clear or very light pink which from what I understand is acceptable so I haven't really had a reason to use the citric acid.

I know in cold process soap, superfatting is good for conditioning and a lye discount is often used so the soap is not too alkaline.

What is the most coco/castor oil you would recommend for a dish soap formula? I'm trying to make something that will clean my dishes and pots and pans well but also not over dry my hands.

Thanks!

 

[VanessaP]

You diluted it but did you neutralize the excess lye? Even if its neutral per the drops, you're still at a 0% superfat so its going to continue to be drying - there are no excess oils to help it be more emollient to your skin. That is the nature of liquid soap. There are a lot of people who make liquid soap with glycerin instead of water, called the glycerin method, and it does not require neutralizing excess lye and quite a few people actually make it with a 2 or 3% superfat level.

 

[hoegarden]

But I don't think glycerin can be use for washing dishes and pots right?

Since there shouldn't be excess oil in such soaps.

 

[Mildreds.naturals]

You diluted it but did you neutralize the excess lye? Even if its neutral per the drops, you're still at a 0% superfat so its going to continue to be drying - there are no excess oils to help it be more emollient to your skin. That is the nature of liquid soap. There are a lot of people who make liquid soap with glycerin instead of water, called the glycerin method, and it does not require neutralizing excess lye and quite a few people actually make it with a 2 or 3% superfat level.

Hmm.. So in regards to the Glycerin: When I make the soap I used a 2:1 glycerin to KOH ratio in place of water. Is that what you mean? Or simply adding the 2-3% to the finished product? I didn't think that Glycerin would affect the KOH.

Thanks for your response. Actually I think I may have figured it out last night. So I didn't want to bother with the adding a neutralizer if I could just "cook to neutrality." I found that once I added the neutralizer, in a very very small amount it changed.

I purchased some citric acid here in L.A. at a middle eastern store (2oz) and made a 20% solution. I followed the directions I found on chickensintheroad.com on neutralizing liquid soap and it's recommendations were WAY off. My sample of soap i neutralized turned into a milky mess. I boiled my soap, added my diulted citric acid 1%(of diluted soap weight) at a time until my soap was either clear or a very very faint pink color. It didn't take very much at all.

I actually diluted all of the past 3 or 4 recipe variations I made to about 25% since they were all at about 33-38%. I then let them sequester and found a couple that were crystal clear before were now cloudy (sad face). I found a tip online somewhere that said if your soap PH is too low, it will cloud since soap is supposed to be somewhat alkaline. I knew it couldn't be unsaponifiables since it was clear before. I added the tiniest bit of glycerin with KOH to raise the PH. Bingo! Clear soap.

I also noticed one of the recipies that I thickend with salt became watery again after adding the very small amount of glyercin/lye. Adding more salt solution thickened again.

I washed a whole sink full of dishes, trying two of my recipies and it's no longer drying.. I blame the concentration more than the PH since they were all within recommended levels. I just lowered them even further to be safe. I'll be neutralizing with citric acid (even if its very little) for now on.

 

[Mildreds.naturals]

But I don't think glycerin can be use for washing dishes and pots right?

Since there shouldn't be excess oil in such soaps.

Vegetable Glycerin is water soluble and is not an oil. Or am I wrong?

 

[hoegarden]

Vegetable Glycerin is water soluble and is not an oil. Or am I wrong?

To be frank. I am not sure. I only understand that it come as a by-product in the soap making process. I do not know how water soluble it is, I never try putting it with water before.

Perhap it the feel of glycerin itself is kind of oily (at least to me) that made me feel this way..

 

[egirlxx7]

I diluted the soap to somewhere between 33-38%. It seemed a little runny still, but I used table salt to thicken (Thickening with table salt is awesome!)

-----
Can you please post the percentages you used and the method in your thickening process with salt?
I would like to get that one another try.

Sulfinated castor oil works best (I have found) with liquid soap, this will help with the dryness. Catherine Failor talks about this in her book "Making natural liquid soaps" it is added after your soap is diluted.

I would say I don't use more than 10% of coconut oil (at the moment) when formulating liquid soap, even when just washing dishes. Of course I'm always open to how I can make a better dish soap as well, I just do the basic (using only one liquid oil and the coconut oil) and no superfatting at all. ...But I do thicken/neutralize with Borax at the moment.

**This past batch I used sunflower oil for my dish soap, and the feeling on my hands is very very nice.(no superfatting)
(I'm considering, combining sunflower with another soft oil next time I made a dish soap).

- I am surprised I'm having so much trouble with this latest batch (a shower gel) I am working on now. Its Glycerin based and it is giving troubles with dilution. Either too watery to get it to diluted or clumping up with not enough water. Its a Castile, and high in soft oils.

So your methods on the salt water would be appreciated. Thank you

 

[Mildreds.naturals]

Egirl,

So first, the percentages are in the very first post for this thread.
Second, Thickening with salt:

I came across this on another site, but what I do is I take distilled water (has to be distilled or your soap will cloud due to minerals, etc), and I boil it. I add salt and stirr, add more salt and stirr. Waiting for it to reach the point where it seems to be highly saturated (usually some salt remains on the bottom).

When I thicken I start with 3.5% of my diluted weight. Then I go up from there to double it again to 7% if it's not thick enough. Certain oils respond better to thickening. For example; I had a batch of what was intended to be hand soap which I made from 80% olive oil. I added the 3.5% salt water and I SWEAR TO GOD It turned into jello! I had to add more water to even be able to pour it LOL. So yeah, salt might help you if you are using Olive oil.

I made a 100% coconut batch which the salt did nothing to thicken, however. Very interesting how that works. I've heard others say that the salt makes their soap feel differently, in a good way.

I actually find it funny that the Dr. Bronner's brand has such a runny, water-like soap. I poured it into a glass, added about a squirt or two of my salt solution and it thickened right up. ahh, that's better

Sulfinated castor oil.. are you talking about using it as a superfat? I don't own the book but i've hear it's a good one. You say you use no more than 10% coco for the moment. That olive oil recipie i mentioned? I added 10% coco and 10% castor for the remaining 20% and I got the most pathetic amount of suds :/.

My experience with borax was aweful. I bought some of it from the store, the 20 mule stuff, and no matter how i used it it would turn my soap into a cloudy white mess. It never worked. I neutralize with Citric acid and thicken with table salt. Everything I read about the citic acid was wrong too. I actually had to add more lye to a recipie because the PH got so low from it that the soap got cloudy. I added the tiniest bit of lye/water solution and it cleared right up. PH tested very light pink after.

In regards to superfatting liquid soap:

I made a new batch recently and here is what I did:

I only used 20% coconut. I did do an extra 8% lye to make sure all the oil was saponified (stupid in hindsight) then I added 2.5% superfat of coconut oil while it was still in the pot, stirred it up and let it cook for another 30 minutes. Tested for clairity: passed. Tested for PH, almost passed but then the next step took care of that. I added the water to another pot on the stove and boiled the water and then turned it off and let the hot water sit as I plopped in, spoon by spoon, all my paste that I just made. Soon as it was all dissolved (didn't take but maybe an hour or two), I came back, heated up the soap and added citric acid (1% of my total diluted soap weight). PH test passed with a very faint light pink. Gave it a 3.5% glycerin to help with .. i forgot what it's for ?? help to clear soap and possibly to help make it less drying or perhaps it was to help bubbles? I forgot so please help me here if you can.



Please, please! moderators if you are reading this. Can we create a category that is just for us potassium hydroxide people? It will make for a much more organized forum with less L.S. topics distracting the other bar soap people . I personally haven'e even made bar soap yet lol

-----
Can you please post the percentages you used and the method in your thickening process with salt?
I would like to get that one another try.

Sulfinated castor oil works best (I have found) with liquid soap, this will help with the dryness. Catherine Failor talks about this in her book "Making natural liquid soaps" it is added after your soap is diluted.

I would say I don't use more than 10% of coconut oil (at the moment) when formulating liquid soap, even when just washing dishes. Of course I'm always open to how I can make a better dish soap as well, I just do the basic (using only one liquid oil and the coconut oil) and no superfatting at all. ...But I do thicken/neutralize with Borax at the moment.

**This past batch I used sunflower oil for my dish soap, and the feeling on my hands is very very nice.(no superfatting)
(I'm considering, combining sunflower with another soft oil next time I made a dish soap).

- I am surprised I'm having so much trouble with this latest batch (a shower gel) I am working on now. Its Glycerin based and it is giving troubles with dilution. Either too watery to get it to diluted or clumping up with not enough water. Its a Castile, and high in soft oils.

So your methods on the salt water would be appreciated. Thank you

 

[carolyntn]

A couple of ideas with regards as to why your soap is drying.

1. "I used the soapcalc.net and added an extra 8% lye so my soap would be crystal clear and not cloudy."
When I use soapcalc to make a liquid soap recipe I put -2% in the superfat/Discount category. I find that is enough.
2."When I thicken I start with 3.5% of my diluted weight. Then I go up from there to double it again to 7% if it's not thick enough." Is it possible that thickening with salt makes it more drying?
3. You may need a longer sequestering period for your soap to become its best.

Carolyn

 

[freethinker]

I would think that the salt makes it drying to the skin.

Pansy

 

[cmzaha]

Maybe you are sensitive to the glycerin and glycerin can actually be drying, plus it can negate some of the lathering quality. Glycerin can pull the moisture from the body, and is at times used medically to remove excess fluids. Try making your ls without using the glycerin method. You can make single oil soaps then blend as you like. I also like sunflower oil in ls. When I use soapcalc my superfat is -13 and I have yet to ever have ls I actually would have to neutralize and my ls is absolutely not drying. You could also try getting rid of the soy and using sunflower. Lard also makes great ls

 

[bodhi]

I am so happy to have found this ls forum. Excuse me for jumping in. I have been lurking for ages and this thread intrigues me.

Mildred, I love that you tweak your pH with citric and koh, i do the same and it is rather amazing how you can pull a batch from the abyss.

I have had success with the borax and actually like the results, unfortunately my customers prefer clear.

I am also having problems getting the moisturizing quality i would like. I have heard sunflower mentioned more than once in ls. Cmzaha, what qualities do you find it brings to ls?

About salt, personally I am not sure if it causes drying. I love a good salt bath and never have found those drying, but of course others mileage might vary. What i have found though, is that in a well pH adjusted batch, salt raises the pH.

 

[stevenparon]

Mildreds.naturals
Hello
I'm new to the LS process but learning day by day I have a couple of questions for you if you don't mind
Did you mix the KOH with water or glycerin? the reason i ask is if glycerin is used with the KOH would you get the same end result as adding it in after to superfat.
Second question is have you or anyone tried heating up all the oils and water(used for dilution) at once and than add the KOH?

 

[hakankose]

It is salt...

Hi,

You said you added the salt for consistence. If you add the salt in your soap paste, glycerine seperate, because of that, your soap make dry your hands and skin. Castor oil is wonderful oil for skin moisturizing, it is never cause the dry and itchy skin. If you add glycerine in your dilution water (20%), your soap is very clear and very smooth...

 

[bodhi]

Im wondering about the glycerin also. I do not like the way it feels on my hands when used in dilution so I dont use it there. Does it give the same skin feel if used to dissolve the koh and does it still moisturize even after being used to dissolve the koh? I made a single oil castor soap and it has no bubbles, Im hoping it adds moisture and doesnt detract too much from the ls if i add only a small amount. Im going to try 5% to start.

 

[liquidsoaplady]

Glycerin is a clarifying agent and foam booster

Hi,
Glad to hear your having fun making liquid soap. Glycerin is a clarifying agent, clears clouded soap and a few ounces added to diluted soap will help with the foaming action.

Since you are using a lye excess you really should add 1 1/2 Tablespoons of a 20% citric acid solution per pound of soap paste, to ensure all alkali are neutralized. To make a 20% solution, add 2 ounces of citric acid to 8 ounces of boiling water, stir to dissolve then add to the diluted soap. It shouldn't cloud the soap at all.

Borax thickens formulas high in soft oils exceptionally well. Add 1 to 3 ounces directly to your dilution water. Stir to dissolve then add your paste. It doesn't do much to thicken formulas high in coconut oil. Adding borax to the dilution water and using less dilution water makes a wonderful gel.

Read Catherine Failor's book, Making Natural Liquid Soaps, takes the mystery out of liquid soap making, makes it easier to formulate your own soaps.

As far as your soaps being drying a high percentage of coconut oil can cause that.

To make your soaps high in coconut oil thicker, use 9 ounces of dilution water per pound of paste, this makes a really nice thick soap.

Hope I answered some of your questions!

Good luck!

Sounds like your on your way to making some nice liquid soaps!

Lisa

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Although as this thread is almost 2 years old, I think that the information given will be a little bit late for the people who posted before hand.