When to start selling

[Hendejm]

And to add - when Henry Ford built the Model A automobile - it was a death trap. It hadn’t been done before - he took huge risks. The Writeville Brothers - with the first flying machine - HUGE personal and professional risk. Both were introduced long before they should have been. But without those 2 things - our world would be VASTLY different today.

I’m confident in saying that most everyone living at the time of the first car and plane - said that it was crazy - it couldn’t be done - don’t even try it - you will fail - you’ll lose everything. But they ignored those naysayers and I believe the world is better for it.

 

[shunt2011]

Because it’s all part of having a business. We do guide them. We won’t tell them to just jump in and sell. It happens all the time I see it at shows. It’s a reality but they need to know the reality. You all are free to do as you please and as your doing. Good luck. Putting the horse before the cart isn’t the way to do it. You happen to have a business. Most don’t and have no idea what they are doing. You may or may not be an exception. Time will tell. Most folks aren’t around after a year or two. No skin off my nose.

 

[Jill B Blasius]

@Donee' We are not try to discourage your plans to sell soap, but there are even simple things that first need to be learned. At the very least, you should be PH testing your cured soap, even before using it on yourself or gifting it. If you have no idea what "testing PH" is, (and I'm not talking about a tongue zap test) you shouldn't be selling soap yet.

In the US, making "soap" is largely unregulated BUT if you are going to sell your soap or if you state that your soap is something other than soap - if it moisturizes - it's a cosmetic - our government has a specific set of rules to follow (which most casual soapers do as far as recording purchase and use by dates of each ingredient, batch records, etc...). Or if it treats a skin condition, such as acne or eczema - it's considered a drug - and it has even more rules to follow as well as product testing by the government. These rules are so extensive, all the way down to the size of your label on your product and the minimum font size used on your ingredients. It's not that our government micro-manages small businesses, it's more about public safety.

You really should examine what your country requires of you as a business before you start selling your "medicinal" soap down at the pharmacy. In the meantime, before you can comply with the rules and start your business officially (registering your name, getting liability insurance, etc...) you'll have plenty of time to practice making soap.

Here's something you may want to read: https://www.modernsoapmaking.com/fo...ics-regulations/?highlight=visit from the fda

 

[shunt2011]

Because it’s all part of having a business. We do guide them. We won’t tell them to just jump in and sell. It happens all the time I see it at shows. It’s a reality but they need to know the reality. You all are free to do as you please and as your doing. Good luck. Putting the horse before the cart isn’t the way to do it. You happen to have a business. Most don’t and have no idea what they are doing. You may or may not be an exception. Time will tell. Most folks aren’t around after a year or two. No skin off my nose.

It’s irresponsible to tell someone it’s okay to sell after a few batches or even a dozen.

 

[LilyJo]

How did we get from selling soap and it’s inplications - all the way to a lawsuit with McDonalds where a woman was severely burned? I don’t see the correlation.

To me - making soap is part art and part science. Art is a very personal expression of a person. If they choose to sell their products then I’m ok with that.

For those that are connecting the dots between a newbie soaper and some idiot who takes a bite out of a bar of soap - shame on you! Yes it can happen - but that scenario can happen regardless of being a new soaper or a seasoned soaper with 20 yrs experience.

We come to these forums to learn - and many of us have learned to get insurance, pay taxes, perfect a recipe, prepare for the unexpected, educate the consumer, etc.

Some will heed the advice to wait and that’s great. Others will forge ahead and that’s great too. It’s like a parent watching a child leave home at 18 (or whenever) - you prepare them, you educate them, you nurture them - but ultimately - they need to learn to be an adult by experience. That young adult will have failures and heart break - they don’t do “life” right 100%of the time (probably not even 50% of the time). But the point is - ultimately they have to learn BY DOING! How many parents have said to themselves “I didn’t raise my child to be like that”? Regardless of what we teach our children or want for them - they have to learn those lessons for themselves with EXPERIENCE. You can’t get experience on a forum or by asking questions. You get experience by DOING and making mistakes - learning from those mistakes and doing it better the next time.

Soaping isn’t any different really - to me. Give everyone that is new a break! Guide them, nurture them, encourage them, course correct them when necessary, be there when they make a mistake and offer help for a better outcome next time. But please don’t discourage them, plant your fears in their heads....pass on your jaded outlook of the future of soaping to them. Please let them fly or allow them to fail - but please allow them to do what’s right for them.

I dont necessarily disagree with what you said in general but there is a big difference in letting people make their own mistakes and posting that (and I am paraphrasing) you dont need to wait just get on and sell soap. As has been said, plenty of newbies read this forum and I would hate anyone to assume that you can just start selling any soap CP or M&P on day one. All any of us have been saying is that there is more to making soap than making soap and that legal requirements vary across the many countries that read this forum.

And whilst I think about it, the jump from newbie soapers and people taking a bite out of soap isnt such a huge leap. Did you know that you cannot sell soap or candles etc that look and smell like food in the uk? How many newbie soapers are aware of the Food Imitation regs? If you watch You Tube everyone makes cupcake soaps but technically they are illegal in the uk and Trading Standards can - and do - force you stop selling them and can prosecute. So in reality no, its not really a huge leap at all!

 

[jcandleattic]

@Hendejm
Nobody is telling anybody when they can or cannot sell. Experienced soapers who have successful businesses are telling people new to the craft why it might not be such a great idea to go headlong into selling without having the experience of knowing what their product will do long-term, that could, in this every litigious society could get them sued. IF they have all their ducks in a row, and have everything in place, and in a worst case scenario they do get sued, with the experience that comes with time they will know what to do and how to defend themselves.

That is what this whole 4 page post has been about all along.

We got to the McDonald's lawsuit because it was equated that suing for soap as being as frivolous as suing over hot coffee, etc.,

 

[LilyJo]

Oh, just to add - if you dont follow local laws and regulations it can (and oftem does) invalidate any insurance policy you may have. Leaving the soapmaker potentially personally liable for any injuries.

 

[SaltedFig]

The correlation is very direct. A careless action by a soapmaker can lead to a burn. Ignoring the risks is what got maccas into hot water.

Someone who has been making soap for 3 weeks may not to have enough experience to spot danger, let alone have the skills to make a medicinal soap.

Suggesting that a new soapmaker, treading the well-worn path of other soapmakers, is somehow like the wright bros or henry ford is somewhat far-fetched imho

 

[MGM]

Actually, it wasn't her mouth that got burned. The coffee spilled in her lap and very seriously burned her "lap area", thighs and buttocks, to the extent that she had to get skin grafts, if I remember correctly.

You're 100% right. I believe the legal document had the words "fused labia" in it....

Edited to add: Oh my, I should have read further. I see this has been discussed *at length*. Much more so than I would have thought on SMF.....

 

[Hendejm]

It’s irresponsible to tell someone it’s okay to sell after a few batches or even a dozen.

Suggesting that a new soapmaker, treading the well-worn path of other soapmakers, is somehow like the wright bros or henry ford is somewhat far-fetched imho

I agree that it’s a far-fetched apples/apples comparison. But the bigger picture in both examples, to me, is the idea that we/they are taking risks. To my mind - Risk is nessesary to move innovation and ideas forward.

 

[MGM]

And that’s the other difference between NZ and the US. There are no medical bills for such treatment here - it’s free.

Same as Canada except....her car trips to and from treatment wouldn't be covered. Nor physiotherapy. Nor perhaps special garments, etc. etc .Pain and suffering and loss of enjoyment of life.
I've often thought that 70% of plot devices in American movies would not longer be valid if they had proper health care ("Man does bad thing to pay medical bills," "Women stays at terrible job to keep health insurance", "Couple has fake marriage in order to get health care," "Community rallies to pay for kid's cancer treatment" "Community gets scammed by person pretending to need to pay for cancer treatment"). It's just a common subtext, it's everywhere!

 

[MadTeddyBear]

Being told you shouldn't do something is not really a big obstacle to overcome. If someone's visiting this forum, they already can find all of the information they need to start selling soap without anyone's approval. Information on how to refine a recipe, identify problems, how to protect your budding business, etc.

Anyone who is ignoring that advice and doing all of that research on their own has probably done their due diligence, understands the risks, and can decide for themselves when it's appropriate to start selling. If someone's asking "what are these ugly spots?" and "how much should I charge?" they probably need to take a step back take the advice to wait a year.

I've run into this with computers. Someone will ask me to install a program or component that's risky and I always refuse. If I do it for you, then you don't know the risks and how to manage them. If you do it yourself, then you've had to learn all of it already and don't need my help.

 

[Marilyn Norgart]

"Anyone who is ignoring that advice and doing all of that research on their own has probably done their due diligence, understands the risks, and can decide for themselves when it's appropriate to start selling. If someone's asking "what are these ugly spots?" and "how much should I charge?" they probably need to take a step back take the advice to wait a year."

I agree that if someone is at the point where they are asking "what are these ugly spots" they probably aren't ready but "how much should I charge" is a pretty valid question dontcha think? it might be something that should be asked locally though. there is a lot to learn on the business end of it and if someone cant come on here and ask questions around that--well that is wrong. I agree that making a few batches of soap doesn't mean you are ready to go out and sell it. but everybody learns differently and at a different rate. and maybe just maybe if people figure out just what it takes to sell they might change their mind on how soon they should try or if they really want to. and I doubt if some one is hell bent on selling sooner than they should nothing anybody says is going to change their mind.

 

[KiwiMoose]

So the advice to newbies is to 'know your soap' and 'know your stuff' before selling. I think there is an element of trust in the knowledge of the soaper that wants to sell. Assumptions are made on both sides. I like @Hendejm's suggestion that we are "part art and part science" and I think you'll find that there are quite a few variables on that continuum. The 'artist' in us is probably the more risky idealist, and the scientist is the more conservative rationalist ( generalisations abound!).

You'll know yourself where you sit on the continuum - those more anal and risk averse might wait a year or two to sell, if at all (that's if they even want to sell). The scientists will have loads of fun testing different recipes and oils and seeing how they react in different situations, and under different conditions. The artist probably doesn't give a toss about any of that and just wants to make pretty patterns with pretty colours, and (bonus!) use some soap after the fun is done. Some people might feel driven to sell because they see an avenue to make money, rather than just a hobby. Some people might have years of business experience, others none. SO many variables. No 'one' right way to do things.

The main reason I want to start selling soon is because I have found myself out of a full time job due to a restructure at work. I have managed to secure a 0.5 post, but have the rest of my time free. I already go to craft fairs and sell my other pieces, and it seems a natural extension of that to also sell soap, now that I'm really starting to get into it. I would at least like to recover my costs, because it's very expensive as a hobby, as you all know. I consider myself a reasonably savvy person (current peri-menopausal brain excluded) having worked across many sectors from retail to wholesale sales, teaching and education, interior design, linguistics, and more recently assessment and graduation manager for an entire university. My family ( grandparents, parents and three sisters) have owned and operated their own businesses for as long as I can remember. I'm taking all my knowledge, which also includes a good balance between 'scientific soap maker' and 'artistic soapmaker' and I'm making a measured decision to 'take the risk' as @Hendejm puts it. I'm no dummy. And I have personal standards that I want to uphold too - I don't want to sell anything inferior either in looks or performance.

Now, if someone else joins up and says they want to sell with no business experience, with no soaping practice, with not an ounce of 'scientist' in their brain at all, with no ability to research and know their products, but rather just a load of enthusiasm then of course - give them a strong dose of reality check! And of course - there are many that have just joined up who have been soaping for years. There're also some that have been soaping for a year and only made 6 batches, and even though their soap may be useable, they may have no idea how they achieved the properties that they did. SO many variables.

 

[MadTeddyBear]

Both questions are perfectly valid, but asking them at the same time is a problem.

 

[Jill B Blasius]

@Donee' You've got some reading to do! After surfing thru your gov.za sites for standards/regulations for soap, (as in a cosmetic, which soapers in the US follow; specifically batch numbering, labelling standards, INCI ingredient names, packaging and GMP [good manufacturing practices]) I found your regulatory documentation: (349 pages):

http://us-cdn.creamermedia.co.za/assets/articles/attachments/72502_41351_rg10790_gon1469s.pdf

In short :

Cosmetics are the subject of the Foodstuffs, Cosmetics and Disinfectants Act, Act 54 of 1972. The industry in South Africa currently self-regulates using the CTFA (Cosmetic, Toiletries and Fragrances Association) guidance documentation, which is based upon the EU Cosmetic Directive.​

And folks, I also found they are just now educating the S AF public school children (and their families) on good handwashing and good hygiene practices in relation to the spread of disease (170 yrs late?).

 

[Hendejm]

So the advice to newbies is to 'know your soap' and 'know your stuff' before selling. I think there is an element of trust in the knowledge of the soaper that wants to sell. Assumptions are made on both sides. I like @Hendejm's suggestion that we are "part art and part science" and I think you'll find that there are quite a few variables on that continuum. The 'artist' in us is probably the more risky idealist, and the scientist is the more conservative rationalist ( generalisations abound!).

You'll know yourself where you sit on the continuum - those more anal and risk averse might wait a year or two to sell, if at all (that's if they even want to sell). The scientists will have loads of fun testing different recipes and oils and seeing how they react in different situations, and under different conditions. The artist probably doesn't give a toss about any of that and just wants to make pretty patterns with pretty colours, and (bonus!) use some soap after the fun is done. Some people might feel driven to sell because they see an avenue to make money, rather than just a hobby. Some people might have years of business experience, others none. SO many variables. No 'one' right way to do things.

The main reason I want to start selling soon is because I have found myself out of a full time job due to a restructure at work. I have managed to secure a 0.5 post, but have the rest of my time free. I already go to craft fairs and sell my other pieces, and it seems a natural extension of that to also sell soap, now that I'm really starting to get into it. I would at least like to recover my costs, because it's very expensive as a hobby, as you all know. I consider myself a reasonably savvy person (current peri-menopausal brain excluded) having worked across many sectors from retail to wholesale sales, teaching and education, interior design, linguistics, and more recently assessment and graduation manager for an entire university. My family ( grandparents, parents and three sisters) have owned and operated their own businesses for as long as I can remember. I'm taking all my knowledge, which also includes a good balance between 'scientific soap maker' and 'artistic soapmaker' and I'm making a measured decision to 'take the risk' as @Hendejm puts it. I'm no dummy. And I have personal standards that I want to uphold too - I don't want to sell anything inferior either in looks or performance.

Now, if someone else joins up and says they want to sell with no business experience, with no soaping practice, with not an ounce of 'scientist' in their brain at all, with no ability to research and know their products, but rather just a load of enthusiasm then of course - give them a strong dose of reality check! And of course - there are many that have just joined up who have been soaping for years. There're also some that have been soaping for a year and only made 6 batches, and even though their soap may be useable, they may have no idea how they achieved the properties that they did. SO many variables.

150+% AGREE

 

[CaraBou]

Glad to see such robust discussion. Like so many things in life, it is not one size fits all, especially considering that the original post was about M&P.

 

[SaltedFig]

...
Use the cash you make to buy the oils and then start with CP.

Saying that people should wait a year is making people spend cash they may not have and its a very very long time until you can see pennies in your pocket for your hard work.

Richard Branson said it well "JUST DO IT" (or was that Nike - I need coffee and cigarettes to get my brain working)

Glad to see such robust discussion. Like so many things in life, it is not one size fits all, especially considering that the original post was about M&P.

I thought the M&P part of this post was to use that to raise money to buy oils to make cold process soap and start selling immediately?

It's is this advice to beginner's, in the beginner's forum, that really bothers me
(So I'm not talking about people who have skilled up and are eagerly looking towards the next logical step - they're keen, but a different category IMHO).

 

[Hendejm]

It's is this advice to beginner's, in the beginner's forum, that really bothers me
(So I'm not talking about people who have skilled up and are eagerly looking towards the next logical step - they're keen, but a different category IMHO).

Well said....I apologize for not connecting those dots. My rants were better suited in a different forum.