What's wrong with my soaps?

[soapgeek]

Hi soapy community!

I wonder if anyone can shed any light on some issues with my soaps please?

Batch 1, photo 1 - this soap seems fine, pomace OO, CO, PO, unscented - it cut fine and looks nice

Batch 2, photo 2 - this was made to exactly the same base recipe as Batch 1, but with the addition of a pre-made blend of EOs (it's an oil I like in my diffuser, so thought I'd give it a whirl). Although it has cut nice and smooth, it seems dusty on the top... Batch 1 was made in a plastic mould from Ikea, this batch was made in a cardboard tissue box!

Batch 3, photo 3 - this is a mess! It's a different base recipe, and had only partially gelled, so I put it in the oven! The base recipe was POO, CO, Sweet Almond Oil, Shea Butter, Castor Oil with cedarwood eo, sweet orange eo, and a bit of may chang eo... again, this one is all dusty and bitty? And this one was made in a small cardboard box with a lid...

Is it soda ash??

I'm realising as I type that I really should have made all the batches in the same mould, then that would have been consistent at least... and perhaps the dusty bittiness is because I made those in cardboard boxes, although they were lined with baking paper. Batch 1 in the plastic Ikea mould was lined with clingfilm (saran wrap in the US??).

I think I need to find a decent base recipe - I didn't really want to use PO, so that's why I tried the different oils combo in Batch 3.

Also, I just discovered today that the sap values on soapcalc are wildly different to the sap values on the site where I've bought my oils and lye?

Sorry for all the questions, I'm trying to understand and get my head around things

 

[shunt2011]

It looks like ash on #2 & #3. Did you make your own blend for #2 or did you use what you use in your diffuser? That may not be skin safe if so. As for Sap values they will vary from batch to bath of oils so even the suppliers aren't 100% accurate. I would use one or the other. If using the suppliers you'll have to figure out the lye needed you'll have to do it manually. I personally would just use one soap calculator and stick to it.

 

[lsg]

IMO it looks like soda ash. You also got a partial gel. Both are harmless. If my soap shows ash, I wipe it off with a paper towel sprayed with alcohol.

 

[soapgeek]

It looks like ash on #2 & #3. Did you make your own blend for #2 or did you use what you use in your diffuser? That may not be skin safe if so. As for Sap values they will vary from batch to bath of oils so even the suppliers aren't 100% accurate. I would use one or the other. If using the suppliers you'll have to figure out the lye needed you'll have to do it manually. I personally would just use one soap calculator and stick to it.

Hi,

Thank you for your advice and linking the calculator.

For Batch 2, I used a pre-blend that I bought to use in my diffuser - I'm not going to use this soap, I just wanted to see what it would smell like if I put it in soap (with a view to doing my own blend of similar eo's if I liked it).

I just read on a different post that soapcalc has a built-in superfat allowance, even before inputting the sf % into the calculator... maybe that's why the sap values are so different as it's already made an allowance? I'd been adding a 5% sf, so the sf in my batches must be waaay over 5%

There's so much to learn isn't there, this is indeed a soapy rabbit hole!!

 

[LilyJo]

Just to add to information overload, unless your rack is stainless steel it's not a good idea to keep the soaps on there, the lye reacts with the metal and can cause DoS.

And yes soap making is one heck of a soapy rabbit hole!!

 

[soapgeek]

IMO it looks like soda ash. You also got a partial gel. Both are harmless. If my soap shows ash, I wipe it off with a paper towel sprayed with alcohol.

Thank you! I think I need to buy some alcohol otherwise I'm going to keep getting ash.

Gin preferably

 

[soapgeek]

Just to add to information overload, unless your rack is stainless steel it's not a good idea to keep the soaps on there, the lye reacts with the metal and can cause DoS.

And yes soap making is one heck of a soapy rabbit hole!!

I think it's stainless steel, but now I'm not so sure... maybe I should buy a wooden one (do they even exist??) to be on the safe side. Or I suppose it'd be ok just to sit the soaps on cardboard or kitchen roll, lining the drawer? I've enough problems with these soaps as it is, don't want DoS as well

These are my soaps, Batch 1 is ok, 2 & 3 not so good... learning, learning... How newbies make such lovely soaps with colours and swirls and such is beyond me!

 

[earlene]

Pollyhowarth, plastic mesh for needlepoint or for lining shelves is what I use under my curing soaps. When & if I use metal racks, they are ALWAYS the plastic/vinyl coated racks AND the plastic mesh on top of that for extra protection in case the coating on the metal becomes damaged (it can get old and start cracking over time.)

Soda ash is merely an aesthetic issue, but there are some ways to discourage it from forming, although not always foolproof. Gelling the soap, using a higher lye concentration (less water), spraying the surface of the soap with alcohol immediately after pouring and at least one more time 15 minutes later with a higher percentage alcohol (SoapQueen recommends using 99% isopropyl alcohol).

It can also be removed by steaming it off, or washing it off with hot/boiling water (a quick dip), or by planing it off, and by spraying/wiping off with alcohol.

But some soapers have the attitude that embracing the ash and accepting the look is the way to go. It depends on the person, of course, but sometimes a little ash in the nooks and crannies of fancy design lend some interest and depth.

Partial gel is another aesthetic that you can either accept or fix if you so desire. There is another thread that discusses how that is done (here).

 

[soapgeek]

Pollyhowarth, plastic mesh for needlepoint or for lining shelves is what I use under my curing soaps. When & if I use metal racks, they are ALWAYS the plastic/vinyl coated racks AND the plastic mesh on top of that for extra protection in case the coating on the metal becomes damaged (it can get old and start cracking over time.)

Soda ash is merely an aesthetic issue, but there are some ways to discourage it from forming, although not always foolproof. Gelling the soap, using a higher lye concentration (less water), spraying the surface of the soap with alcohol immediately after pouring and at least one more time 15 minutes later with a higher percentage alcohol (SoapQueen recommends using 99% isopropyl alcohol).

It can also be removed by steaming it off, or washing it off with hot/boiling water (a quick dip), or by planing it off, and by spraying/wiping off with alcohol.

But some soapers have the attitude that embracing the ash and accepting the look is the way to go. It depends on the person, of course, but sometimes a little ash in the nooks and crannies of fancy design lend some interest and depth.

Partial gel is another aesthetic that you can either accept or fix if you so desire. There is another thread that discusses how that is done (here).

Thanks Earlene, I'll buy some of the meshing to be on the safe side, and get some alcohol too!
I'll have a read of the link you've attached, much appreciated!

 

[DeeAnna]

...I just read on a different post that soapcalc has a built-in superfat allowance, even before inputting the sf % into the calculator... maybe that's why the sap values are so different as it's already made an allowance?...

Not sure where you saw this. As far as I'm aware, Soapcalc and other reputable recipe calcs don't deliberately build in some kind of superfat allowance -- they don't adjust the sap values as you are suggesting.

If there are slight differences in sap values amongst the various calcs, this is due to the data each designer used. Fats are natural materials and their sap values vary because nature doesn't see any need to follow our human rules and expectations. The sap values used in the calcs are estimates/averages. It's okay there's some variation in the answers -- pick a calc, get used to how it works, and don't worry that the answers it gives you are slightly different than the answers calculated by other calcs. They're all estimates in the end.

What is true is that most recipe calcs do assume NaOH is 100% pure, but real life NaOH is never 100% pure. The difference between the actual purity and 100% purity is a "hidden" superfat.

So if your NaOH is 97% pure, there's a hidden superfat of 100 - 97 = 3% due to this purity difference.

But that's not something sneakily intentional that the calc is doing.

 

[soapgeek]

Not sure where you saw this. As far as I'm aware, Soapcalc and other reputable recipe calcs don't deliberately build in some kind of superfat allowance -- they don't adjust the sap values as you are suggesting.

If there are slight differences in sap values amongst the various calcs, this is due to the data each designer used. Fats are natural materials and their sap values vary because nature doesn't see any need to follow our human rules and expectations. The sap values used in the calcs are estimates/averages. It's okay there's some variation in the answers -- pick a calc, get used to how it works, and don't worry that the answers it gives you are slightly different than the answers calculated by other calcs. They're all estimates in the end.

What is true is that most recipe calcs do assume NaOH is 100% pure, but real life NaOH is never 100% pure. The difference between the actual purity and 100% purity is a "hidden" superfat.

So if your NaOH is 97% pure, there's a hidden superfat of 100 - 97 = 3% due to this purity difference.

But that's not something sneakily intentional that the calc is doing.

Thanks DeeAnna, I think it's starting to make a bit more sense now! I've been looking at the sap values in different places for comparisons, and I just read on the Brambleberry lye calculator that it assumes the NaOH has 97% purity...
So, if my NaOH was say, 98% purity, would I really only need to input 3% sf into the lye calculator to get the 5%?

I also read that some oils have unsaponifiables, eg unrefined shea butter, which can range from 6 to 17%!! In that case, would that just make the soap very moisturising, and also would the recipe not need any superfatting if it had unrefined shea butter in it?

I'm sure I'm overthinking things, there's just so much to learn!

 

[linne1gi]

Thanks DeeAnna, I think it's starting to make a bit more sense now! I've been looking at the sap values in different places for comparisons, and I just read on the Brambleberry lye calculator that it assumes the NaOH has 97% purity...
So, if my NaOH was say, 98% purity, would I really only need to input 3% sf into the lye calculator to get the 5%?

I also read that some oils have unsaponifiables, eg unrefined shea butter, which can range from 6 to 17%!! In that case, would that just make the soap very moisturising, and also would the recipe not need any superfatting if it had unrefined shea butter in it?

I'm sure I'm overthinking things, there's just so much to learn!

Just to add my 2 cents. Soda ash is sodium carbonate. It comes from the unreacted lye in your soap reacting with the carbon dioxide in the air. Some ways you can lessen ash, use a higher lye concentration ( less water), pour at a thicker trace, and most important, cover your soap. If you cover your soap with plastic wrap for 48 hours, you shouldn’t get ash. The wrap prevents air from hitting the soap.

 

[Deborah Long]

Wow! They ALL look like soap to me and I'm sure will be wonderful in 4-6 weeks! Have fun!

 

[soapgeek]

Just to add my 2 cents. Soda ash is sodium carbonate. It comes from the unreacted lye in your soap reacting with the carbon dioxide in the air. Some ways you can lessen ash, use a higher lye concentration ( less water), pour at a thicker trace, and most important, cover your soap. If you cover your soap with plastic wrap for 48 hours, you shouldn’t get ash. The wrap prevents air from hitting the soap.

Thank you linne1gi for your advice, everyone's so helpful on this forum, I'm so grateful!

 

[DeeAnna]

So, if my NaOH was say, 98% purity, would I really only need to input 3% sf into the lye calculator to get the 5%?

Yes, that's right.

"...some oils have unsaponifiables ... would ... make the soap very moisturising, and also would the recipe not need any superfatting..."

I don't see why you are assuming unsaponifiable content in soap can be moisturizing. And also why the unsaponifiable content can be used as substitute for superfatting.

I'm not sure I agree with either of those assumptions. To explain my POV, remember that superfat -- in other words, fat in excess of that needed for saponification -- has two purposes --

(1) to ensure there is no lye excess in the finished soap​

(2) to emulsify with soap and thus reduce the soap's ability to remove natural fats from the skin​

Unsaponifiables by definition can do neither task. A lot of people assume some of the fat and some of the unsaponifiable content in soap can stick to the skin. I agree this is happens when a fat is used in a lotion or other leave-on product, but no more than the tiniest of traces of unsaponifiable content or fat can possibly stick to the skin when the fat is in soap.

The function of bathing with soap is to emulsify fats and loosen grime so impurities can be washed off. Expecting the "other stuff" you add to a soap to then "stick" to the skin and remain behind -- especially after giving your skin a thorough rinse to remove all the suds -- is a little unrealistic.

 

[linne1gi]

I agree here with DeeAnna, don't look at unsaponifiables as extra fat - calculate your superfat to your liking. I personally don't like a high superfat. I like to formulate a low cleansing, high conditioning, high bubbiness bar. My understanding of soap is that it washes any superfat down the drain. Soap is an emulsifier - so superfatting at a higher rate only sends more superfat down the drain. If you want moisturizing, use a lotion. And where are you getting your lye? My lye (I purchase from Duda Diesel) is 99.99%k pure and food grade.