What's going on

[Todd Ziegler]

I'm not sure what is going on with this batch. I made it on Wednesday and it wasn't solid enough to unmold until today. The pictures are the best I could do. There is a thin layer, maybe 3/32" thick on the flat side that is coming off. I cut the end of and it was still soft but it looks like there is soda ash all the way through. The two things that are different from all my other batches is the recipe and I couldn't get the gel phase above 109°F, I usually keep the temperature around 115°-120°F but it just kept cooling off. Babassu and the amount of sunflower oil is all I changed. The babassu was some left over that I added and I increased the sunflower amount from 15% to 25%. I soap at around 110°F.
Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. I am just letting it sit for now with a fan, on low, blowing on it.

 

[Obsidian]

I'm thinking this is just a slow to saponify batch since it didn't gel. It may even be zappy still.

I've had batches like this, weird soft texture and flaky. Usually.some of the soap sticks to the mold too. They all turned out fine in the end

 

[Belindasuds]

Do you happen to have a screen shot of the recipe in SoapCalc or similar so we can see the %'s, breakdown of ingredients and the Fatty Acids?

 

[cmzaha]

I agree with Obsidian. I am curious if you poured at a thin trace? I find pouring at emulsion or thin trace and not gelling can cause this to happen. With a 33% Lye concentration you would have to work hard to force gel if your batter continued to cool down and I have had this happen since I soap cool. That is why I put my molds in a shallow crate on heat pads wrapped in an electric blanket. I simply do not depend on the oven to gel my soaps. If you can get it all back in your mold you might be able to get it to gel and fix it.

Do you happen to have a screen shot of the recipe in SoapCalc or similar so we can see the %'s, breakdown of ingredients and the Fatty Acids?

His recipe is fine. In fact it is one I would certainly use but would have to force gel.

 

[Belindasuds]

cool! thanks for confirming @cmzaha

As a self confessed soap science nerd, I like looking at the numbers (particularly the fatty acid profiles) – lots can be garnered from those specifics. I was more looking to provide specifics on the "why" it was happening when suggesting a possible solution. I'm thinking along the same lines as you for solution though as I believe the result might be due to the level of palmitic acid in the recipe, in which case what appears to be soda ash might very well be stearic spots. Are you thinking the same?

 

[Todd Ziegler]

Do you happen to have a screen shot of the recipe in SoapCalc or similar so we can see the %'s, breakdown of ingredients and the Fatty Acids?

Here's the percentages

I agree with Obsidian. I am curious if you poured at a thin trace? I find pouring at emulsion or thin trace and not gelling can cause this to happen. With a 33% Lye concentration you would have to work hard to force gel if your batter continued to cool down and I have had this happen since I soap cool. That is why I put my molds in a shallow crate on heat pads wrapped in an electric blanket. I simply do not depend on the oven to gel my soaps. If you can get it all back in your mold you might be able to get it to gel and fix it.


His recipe is fine. In fact it is one I would certainly use but would have to force gel.

In fact it was a thin trace. I didn't want to mess with putting it in the oven because I kept thinking the temperature would go up. I had it wrapped in thick towels. I am not worried about it, I think time will make it better. This was a new experience for me and I want to get some advice before I proceeded. The top half is soft and from the middle to the curved end is more firm. I will give it some time and then re-examine it.

cool! thanks for confirming @cmzaha

As a self confessed soap science nerd, I like looking at the numbers (particularly the fatty acid profiles) – lots can be garnered from those specifics. I was more looking to provide specifics on the "why" it was happening when suggesting a possible solution. I'm thinking along the same lines as you for solution though as I believe the result might be due to the level of palmitic acid in the recipe, in which case what appears to be soda ash might very well be stearic spots. Are you thinking the same?

I did think that it could be a stearic problem but since I have never had that problem, I wasn't confident with any of my reasoning. Thanks

 

[cmzaha]

cool! thanks for confirming @cmzaha

As a self confessed soap science nerd, I like looking at the numbers (particularly the fatty acid profiles) – lots can be garnered from those specifics. I was more looking to provide specifics on the "why" it was happening when suggesting a possible solution. I'm thinking along the same lines as you for solution though as I believe the result might be due to the level of palmitic acid in the recipe, in which case what appears to be soda ash might very well be stearic spots. Are you thinking the same?

His recipe did not have enough stearic for it to be a problem. My vegan recipe is 23% Palmitic, 7% Stearic, 40% Oleic (from HO Sunflower). It will do this if it does not gel.

 

[Todd Ziegler]

His recipe did not have enough stearic for it to be a problem. My vegan recipe is 23% Palmitic, 7% Stearic, 40% Oleic (from HO Sunflower). It will do this if it does not gel.

Thanks, I had 2 problems in mind stearic spots, soda ash and I think the consensus is that I didn't get it to gel. I can live with that. I just wanted to hear other people's thoughts on it.

 

[Belindasuds]

I did think that it could be a stearic problem but since I have never had that problem, I wasn't confident with any of my reasoning. Thanks

I know what you mean, that's why I like to look at the numbers. Also, I like to rely on a calculator to do the math

For fun I ran your recipe through a calculator that I am familiar with and tweaked a few things to match. Here's how it's looking (attached). Wanted to mention is that I had to drop the superfat/discount down from 5% to 2.2% to match your numbers.

Regarding the fatty acid profiles:
Lauric 14 – good! I usually aim for 15
Myristic 6 – good! I usually aim for 4 to 7
Palmitic 16 – edging towards the higher side but totally fine! I usually aim for aim for 10% to 15% and for higher numbers ensure the batter doesn't dip below 40C / 104F and CPOP the soap once poured
Stearic 7 – Fine! I usually aim for aim for 10 to 12 and for higher numbers ensure the batter doesn't dip below 40C / 104F and CPOP the soap once poured
Ricinoleic 5 – good! I usually aim for 6 to 10 but this is completely personal preference
Oleic 42 – good! I usually aim for 30 to 34 but this is completely personal preference. My recipes include other conditioning additives which I factor in.
Linoleic 4 – good! I usually aim for 10 to 14 max. 15 and above can lead to DOS
Linolenic 0 – Fine! 0 to 1 is totally fine.

I hope this helps!

Your temps dipping between mixing and pouring likely played a part. If you can soap a bit warmer that should help. And if you can, try CPOP or using a heating pad. I have one like this which I use to wrap around my column molds.

 

[Belindasuds]

His recipe did not have enough stearic for it to be a problem. My vegan recipe is 23% Palmitic, 7% Stearic, 40% Oleic (from HO Sunflower). It will do this if it does not gel.

Thanks for sharing! You're definitely better at figuring that out that I am! I had to run the recipe through a calculator.
PS that's cool that you soap vegan; me too. I have a few soapy friends who use lard so I often hear about the challenges they have faced.

So if it's not stearic spots, then what is it? No worries if you don't have the answer.
I am curious to learn for myself and I have received questions around this topic on a number of occasions. Although I know what the solution is, I would love to know the cause too, if anyone happens to know.

 

[Todd Ziegler]

I know what you mean, that's why I like to look at the numbers. Also, I like to rely on a calculator to do the math

For fun I ran your recipe through a calculator that I am familiar with and tweaked a few things to match. Here's how it's looking (attached). Wanted to mention is that I had to drop the superfat/discount down from 5% to 2.2% to match your numbers.

Regarding the fatty acid profiles:
Lauric 14 – good! I usually aim for 15
Myristic 6 – good! I usually aim for 4 to 7
Palmitic 16 – edging towards the higher side but totally fine! I usually aim for aim for 10% to 15% and for higher numbers ensure the batter doesn't dip below 40C / 104F and CPOP the soap once poured
Stearic 7 – Fine! I usually aim for aim for 10 to 12 and for higher numbers ensure the batter doesn't dip below 40C / 104F and CPOP the soap once poured
Ricinoleic 5 – good! I usually aim for 6 to 10 but this is completely personal preference
Oleic 42 – good! I usually aim for 30 to 34 but this is completely personal preference. My recipes include other conditioning additives which I factor in.
Linoleic 4 – good! I usually aim for 10 to 14 max. 15 and above can lead to DOS
Linolenic 0 – Fine! 0 to 1 is totally fine.

I hope this helps!

Your temps dipping between mixing and pouring likely played a part. If you can soap a bit warmer that should help. And if you can, try CPOP or using a heating pad. I have one like this which I use to wrap around my column molds.

Thanks, it definitely didn't gel like I wanted and it is a recipe that I will probably not repeat. I have a recipe that has been really working well for me. This was a recipe of what I had on hand. The safflower oil that I normally use is out of stock, so I made some subs. I also lowered the super fat to 2% from 3% which I use for my standard recipe. Just thought I would change a few things since I didn't have enough of my normal recipe ingredients.

 

[cmzaha]

Thanks for sharing! You're definitely better at figuring that out that I am! I had to run the recipe through a calculator.
PS that's cool that you soap vegan; me too. I have a few soapy friends who use lard so I often hear about the challenges they have faced.

So if it's not stearic spots, then what is it? No worries if you don't have the answer.
I am curious to learn for myself and I have received questions around this topic on a number of occasions. Although I know what the solution is, I would love to know the cause too, if anyone happens to know.

My favorite recipe is not Vegan. My favorite is a 40/27% Tallow/lard (varies a little at times) with 13% HO liquid oil. It is my workable recipe when I want to play.

It is either heavy ash or as DeeAnna recently mentioned soap crystals. I really do not know but it can become very thick. But I have had it happen often if the soap does not gel. I tend to soap my recipes with my oils at 100ºf and lye 68ºf when the weather is cool. These temps usually result in my batter warming up to around 116-118ºF so I have to force gel. During the summer my masterbatch lye solution will be warmer

 

[penelopejane]

I don't every worry about fatty acid profiles.
I soap at 110*F for every recipe I make. I use a thick silicone mold inside a timber surround with a lid and I I put it inside a polystyrene box and cover it with a doona.
I don't think wrapping it as you did is enough to contain a warm environment around the soap to encourage gel.

 

[Arimara]

This was interesting. I think you probably could have benefited from using a 30% lye solution for this recipe. A little bit more water may have made a difference.

 

[Anstarx]

I believe the problem may lie within the thin trace.
I posted a thread some time ago about a bizzare soda ash I got-It's very similar looking to your photo.
The original post here: Frost like soda ash?
I had the problem again when I was running mica tests lately-In order to make sure I have enough working time, I used a very slow moving, blend until just past emulsion and pour into individual cups with mica in them, then blendd each of them together. Most soaps are not even thin trace yet when I finished blending.
Many developed frost-like white spots both inside and outside, just like the ones in your photo. I had it happening to other soaps that I poured at very thin trace as well.

 

[Belindasuds]

I believe the problem may lie within the thin trace.
I posted a thread some time ago about a bizzare soda ash I got-It's very similar looking to your photo.
The original post here: Frost like soda ash?
I had the problem again when I was running mica tests lately-In order to make sure I have enough working time, I used a very slow moving, blend until just past emulsion and pour into individual cups with mica in them, then blendd each of them together. Most soaps are not even thin trace yet when I finished blending.
Many developed frost-like white spots both inside and outside, just like the ones in your photo. I had it happening to other soaps that I poured at very thin trace as well.

Thanks for sharing! I had a peek at the thread. It does sound very similar. I did a little test on a soap which I'm about the cut. Let's see how it pans out!

 

[Arimara]

I believe the problem may lie within the thin trace.
I posted a thread some time ago about a bizzare soda ash I got-It's very similar looking to your photo.
The original post here: Frost like soda ash?
I had the problem again when I was running mica tests lately-In order to make sure I have enough working time, I used a very slow moving, blend until just past emulsion and pour into individual cups with mica in them, then blendd each of them together. Most soaps are not even thin trace yet when I finished blending.
Many developed frost-like white spots both inside and outside, just like the ones in your photo. I had it happening to other soaps that I poured at very thin trace as well.

This is a gel issue. Trace doesn't really matter in this case. You need thin trace to do some swirls anyway.

 

[Todd Ziegler]

This is a gel issue. Trace doesn't really matter in this case. You need thin trace to do some swirls anyway.

I repeated the recipe in a smaller amount and then I CPOP't it because it would get warm and the results were the same. A very poor batch of soap. So I decided to use these two batches for a 6 month test and see what happens. Also I have went back to my standard recipe which is 47% lard with 20% Coconut oil and 17% SO with palm oil and castor oil. It works well for me and does a great job of cleaning. After all isn't that what soap is supposed to do? Lol