What is the zap test?

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I can't speak for Earlene, but I am trialing 5% KOH in some of my recipes.

I find it really improves the lather of a high oleic soap -- the soap makes more lather more easily and the lather is more bubbly and fluffy rather than dense and lotiony. The added KOH also reduces the tendency for the soap to make that disagreeable oleic "slime".

I think the KOH works about the same as making a bastile by adding coconut oil except you're not -- the soap is made only from a high oleic fat such as olive, HO sunflower, HO safflower, avocado, etc. See http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=59747

I have also been using 5% KOH in a few batches of soap that contain half or more lard (high stearic-palmitic). There ~is~ a distinct change toward more bubbly, fluffy lather, but the shift is not as dramatic as the change with the high oleic soaps.
 
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I have also been using 5% KOH in a few batches of soap that contain half or more lard (high stearic-palmitic). There ~is~ a distinct change toward more bubbly, fluffy lather, but the shift is not as dramatic as the change with the high oleic soaps.

ENABLER!!! Now I just have to try this!

And my son said his 2 gallons of diluted liquid soap leaked all over the place, so I already have to make liquid soap.
 
Well not everyone loves a roadtrip as much as I do, but I say make it a day to enjoy and have some fun along the way. A meal out. A little sightseeing. Maybe a play or a movie after you do your shopping and before you drive back home again. Then again, I might even do an over-nighter for the fun of it. Anyway, I am sure you will get around to it eventually. The KOH is worth the effort when it comes to the dual lye Castile soap!

I actually love road trips myself but my driving skills are nigh nonexistant and I'm nervous in a car in general. I'm not fond of the dual lye castiles I made with the exception of the lye heavy one I made. I was surprised that it was safe to use after 3 months and it has a note to it that I'd love if it wasn't scented. I'd love to make a bastile this way but I need to work around the trace a little better.
 
We do 45,000 km a year each in our cars! I go up there a lot but mostly on the weekends when the shop isn't open.

What do you find the dual lye brings to Castile? What percentages do you use?

I am sorry for the delayed response. I just started looking at newer responses to recent threads that show up on the first page of each forum and saw your question.

So far I have not used the bars because they are young yet. I made them the last week of June. Here is my thread about making them, which I wanted to try after reading about it here on SMF and elsewhere. (I can't find the elsewhere right now, and that is bugging me. I thought I bookmarked it.)

I can't speak for Earlene, but I am trialing 5% KOH in some of my recipes.

I find it really improves the lather of a high oleic soap -- the soap makes more lather more easily and the lather is more bubbly and fluffy rather than dense and lotiony. The added KOH also reduces the tendency for the soap to make that disagreeable oleic "slime".

I think the KOH works about the same as making a bastile by adding coconut oil except you're not -- the soap is made only from a high oleic fat such as olive, HO sunflower, HO safflower, avocado, etc. See http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=59747

I have also been using 5% KOH in a few batches of soap that contain half or more lard (high stearic-palmitic). There ~is~ a distinct change toward more bubbly, fluffy lather, but the shift is not as dramatic as the change with the high oleic soaps.

This sounds interesting. I am curious about the changes in bubbliness and lather in the lard soaps. Are you still using EDTA in the lard soaps with the dual lye method? And what lye concentration do you use when you test a new process like this? Or does it matter?
 
Yes, I used EDTA. My water is softened with a whole house softener. The EDTA noticeably kicks in to reduce soap scum only when we run out of salt for the water softener, however. I use EDTA in my soaps for DOS prevention as much as soap scum control.

I don't think lye concentration makes a huge difference in the lather assuming the soap is reasonably well cured. Not nearly like the effect of the fat blend and cure time.

In the recent past, people who have shared the use of NaOH and a bit of KOH for making regular bath soaps have been author Anne Watson in her book Castile Soapmaking and on her website, and Evik, the Curious Soapmaker, on her website. Another person who discussed this some years back is SMF member Sistrum.

Here's a blog post: https://soapinthecity2.wordpress.co...e-l-watsons-koh-modified-castile-soap-recipe/
 
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Yes, I used EDTA. My water is softened with a whole house softener. The EDTA noticeably kicks in to reduce soap scum only when we run out of salt for the water softener, however. I use EDTA in my soaps for DOS prevention as much as soap scum control.

I don't think lye concentration makes a huge difference in the lather assuming the soap is reasonably well cured. Not nearly like the effect of the fat blend and cure time.

In the recent past, people who have shared the use of NaOH and a bit of KOH for making regular bath soaps have been author Anne Watson in her book Castile Soapmaking, and Evik, the Curious Soapmaker, on her website. Another person who discussed this some years back is SMF member Sistrum.

Here's a blog post: https://soapinthecity2.wordpress.co...e-l-watsons-koh-modified-castile-soap-recipe/

Thank you, it was the Curious Soapmaker post I couldn't find again. Now I have it.
 
I just dove into making soap about a month ago. My first batch is 12 days old and curing so far. My last batch is 3 days old. I've made 5 batches so far. I was a bit hesitant about zap testing my soap because I still haven't fully cured my first batch of soap yet.. 4 weeks and 2 days left! I'm going for a 6-week cure. :)

Today I picked up a bar of both the first and most recent batch for the zap test. All I tasted was soap.. haha! I am happy, but can this ever mean that I did not use enough lye? Would this be physically noticeable?

Also, I would deeply appreciate input on when it is the appropriate time to zap test. I've read on different posts to zap test while the bar is still in the mold. Is the curing still considered part of the saponification process? Is saponification over after it stops zapping, or if it never does? Thanks for reading!
 
I just dove into making soap about a month ago. My first batch is 12 days old and curing so far. My last batch is 3 days old. I've made 5 batches so far. I was a bit hesitant about zap testing my soap because I still haven't fully cured my first batch of soap yet.. 4 weeks and 2 days left! I'm going for a 6-week cure. :)

Today I picked up a bar of both the first and most recent batch for the zap test. All I tasted was soap.. haha! I am happy, but can this ever mean that I did not use enough lye? Would this be physically noticeable?

Also, I would deeply appreciate input on when it is the appropriate time to zap test. I've read on different posts to zap test while the bar is still in the mold. Is the curing still considered part of the saponification process? Is saponification over after it stops zapping, or if it never does? Thanks for reading!

I personally zap test my soaps at about 3-4 days. I just take an end piece and work up a bit of lather then touch it to my tongue. That's for gelled soaps. Ungelled soap I would wait a bit longer. I'm sure others will pipe in when they test theirs.

As long as you are running your recipes through a lye calculator you will have enough lye in your soap. Unless of course you don't measure correctly, then you may have too much or not enough to where it's really soft.
 
IToday I picked up a bar of both the first and most recent batch for the zap test. All I tasted was soap.. haha! I am happy, but can this ever mean that I did not use enough lye? Would this be physically noticeable?

Like Shari said- if you are using a lye calculator, it's a given that you will have enough lye in your soap.......unless perhaps your scale is not weighing properly, but if that is the case, it could go either way- you may end up with either too much or too little lye.

Suffice it to say that if your soap holds together and lathers (i.e., is not a liquidy, lather-less, gooey mess), you'll know you at least used enough lye to make soap.

If it's really lye heavy, it'll be brittle and you'll most likely find that it will still zap for weeks and weeks later after unmolding. But if you were on the low side with the lye, your soap will just have a higher superfat than you intended, and may or may not feel as hard as other soaps (the degree of softness/hardness will depend on the oils you used and how big the superfat).

For what its worth (to give you an idea of how far off you can be on the low side and still be okay), you can get away with being at least 20% deficient on the lye but still end up with a decent soap, depending on the oils/fats you used. For example, I make a 100% coconut oil soap with a 20% superfat and it it's quite lovely.


Also, I would deeply appreciate input on when it is the appropriate time to zap test. I've read on different posts to zap test while the bar is still in the mold. Is the curing still considered part of the saponification process? Is saponification over after it stops zapping, or if it never does? Thanks for reading!

I would never, ever zap test the soap while its still in the mold......at least not when doing CP anyway. In my opinion, that is just foolhardy. It's different with HP, though- HP should be zap-tested after the cook when the soap is still in batter phase just before one molds it.

For my CP, if it has gelled, I just zap test sometime within the next few days after unmolding/cutting. If un-gelled, I wait at least a week.

RE: Curing and saponification: those are 2 different things. Saponification means 'to turn into soap' and it is complete when there's lather and no longer any zap in the soap. For gelled soap, saponification usually concludes somewhere within the time-frame of a 6 to 24 hour period (depending on the formula). For un-gelled soap, it usually takes a few days longer, and can even take as long as up to a week (based on my own experience).

Curing, on the other hand, is what happens after saponification is complete, and it proceeds at a much, much slower pace than saponification. Although the soap lathers and there's no zap, its lathering ability will increase during cure, the pH will go down some, and it will feel milder/less harsh to the skin.

Particular length of cure varies from person to person based on their formula and the acceptable, good, or optimal levels of performance their soap is able to achieve as it matures. For me, I've found that most of my formulas reach an acceptable level of performance by 4 weeks of cure, and they mature to more optimal levels by about the 6 to 8 week mark. But they keep getting even better beyond 8 weeks (albeit at an even slower, less obvious rate).

This raises the question- is there a point where the increase in performance levels off and the gains are so small that it is no longer worth waiting it out any longer? Yes, but it's not a 'set-in-stone' point or anything like that. It will be different for each individual soaper and their formulas, as well as their own personal likes or dislikes. Speaking only for myself, that point lies somewhere between 3 months to 6 months of cure.


IrishLass :)
 
Thank you very much for the in depth response! The process is much easier to visualize now. I am one of those cursed with the visual learning and need to check everything off before I can be satisfied with my results. I have spent a lot of time reading and watching videos, lately, but some things just aren't easy to find specific answers on.

Assuming the soap does not zap and it is in the curing process, let's say two weeks, even though it is not done curing.. can one do a lather test or better yet use it in the shower? I understand that curing makes for a harder bar, which will last longer, but will it still be irritating to the skin? I read someone in a different post mention that ph strips aren't really that effective for measuring ph.. that being said, has anyone ever found a bar that does not zap with unruly ph not safe for the skin?
 
You are more than welcome to try your soap at whatever stage you choose. However, we are not responsible for the results. So, if you find your two week old soap not good to shower with after you have taken the shower, then you have learned. There is a reason I suggest washing your hands with it first.
 
I confess to trying a sliver of soap to test it out - sometimes the same day I cut it. It probably isn't the smartest thing to do, and I don't recommend this for anyone. But only at the sink and only washing my hands. I never shower with a bar until it is at least 4 weeks old.
 
Thank you very much for the in depth response! The process is much easier to visualize now. I am one of those cursed with the visual learning and need to check everything off before I can be satisfied with my results. I have spent a lot of time reading and watching videos, lately, but some things just aren't easy to find specific answers on.

Assuming the soap does not zap and it is in the curing process, let's say two weeks, even though it is not done curing.. can one do a lather test or better yet use it in the shower? I understand that curing makes for a harder bar, which will last longer, but will it still be irritating to the skin? I read someone in a different post mention that ph strips aren't really that effective for measuring ph.. that being said, has anyone ever found a bar that does not zap with unruly ph not safe for the skin?

Being a visual learner is not a curse. I wish I was confined to it. But somehow, I also learn from listening to lectures as long as the speaker is not doing anything distracting.

I confess to trying a sliver of soap to test it out - sometimes the same day I cut it. It probably isn't the smartest thing to do, and I don't recommend this for anyone. But only at the sink and only washing my hands. I never shower with a bar until it is at least 4 weeks old.

I have found that slivers are deceptive. I just use a tester bar to see how the soap is coming along.
 
I would also just test them on hands to start off with. Also, don't think about adjustments in this phase, especially until you get more experienced- a two week old cp soap is really not going to be a good representation of how the soap could be at 8 weeks. So take these tests as a chance to see what a difference the cure makes for now. Later you can get a better feel for how a soap might develop from using it early, but even then what can seem to be a terrible soap can age well and end up being lovely.

A two week old soap can also seem harsher. pH has no part in that, it is something about how the soap cures instead. pH can have a place in soaping to some extent, however many of us do not measure the pH at all and many of those who do are only doing it for information purposes and are also testing accurately with dedicated equipment.

For now, concentrate on the recipe and your process and leave pH to one side. A soap with a bad recipe badly made will be a worse soap than a well made soap with a balanced recipe. Even if the latter has a higher pH than the former.
 

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