What is a "vegan soap"?

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Something that TopOfMurrayHill said stuck in my mind, then recently someone mentioned not wanting to soap with animal fat and it was mentioned again in a post and it got the wheels in my head slowly chugging along with something and it has led me to the following conclusion:

Depending on the grounds of the veganism, there may be no such thing as a vegan or non-vegan soap.

Or rather, as all oils are made up of fatty acids in certain proportions and these fatty acids are saponified (super fat to one side for now) then you can make the same recipe using raw fatty acids to make the same profile as lard.

Lard has 1 myristic, 28 palmitic, 13 stearic, 46 oleic, and 6 linoleic.
Palm has 1 myristic, 44 palmitic, 5 stearic, 39 oleic, and 10 linoleic.

By that same token, if I made a 0% SF soap with lard, I am left with saponifed fatty acids. There is no actual animal product left in the soap. If a vegan does not want to use an animal product, they could use that soap.

This follows the old argument of soap being certified organic or not because, while the NaOH is NOT organic, it is not technically present in the finished product as it reacts with the fats to make the soap. By that reasoning, there is no lard in a 0% SF lard soap.

So if I HP a 0% SF soap with 20% CO and 80% lard, then add in an SF of CO, I technically have no lard anywhere, as it is all saponified fatty acids. So for some vegans, there is no animal product in that soap.

Technically..........................
 
I guess it will come to the actual belief then. Being vegan is not just "not eating or consuming anything that comes from animals". It's a belief that they shouldn't be killed, exploited or made to suffer.
Even though they might not be actual animal parts left in the soap, they died so that the soap could be made.
Animal was killed and suffered for that soap to be made.
When you make a lard soap, you need to kill a pig.
For coconut or palm oil soap, you need to harvest trees.
I'm not vegan or vegetarian so this is just an educated rumbling. If I'm wrong, someone please correct me.
 
I guess it will come to the actual belief then. Being vegan is not just "not eating or consuming anything that comes from animals". It's a belief that they shouldn't be killed, exploited or made to suffer.
Even though they might not be actual animal parts left in the soap, they died so that the soap could be made.
Animal was killed and suffered for that soap to be made.
When you make a lard soap, you need to kill a pig.
For coconut or palm oil soap, you need to harvest trees.
I'm not vegan or vegetarian so this is just an educated rumbling. If I'm wrong, someone please correct me.

Coconut oil is from the coconut, not by harvesting the tree, so I'm not sure if that would change the way anyone sees it. I would compare to using a fruit oil. I have a vegan neighbor, and am slowly learning things from her.
 
There are some degrees of veganism, some with the belief that animals should not be killed for food, others that they personally will not eat or use animal products. Also, if animals are killed anyway for food so no animal dies for the fat, does that then change the view?
 
I am not vegan either. Maybe it matters where the fat came from (ie. an animal) regardless of whether or not it remained in the finished product. It was still used to make it. That would be my guess..?
 
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Coconut oil is from the coconut, not by harvesting the tree, so I'm not sure if that would change the way anyone sees it. I would compare to using a fruit oil. I have a vegan neighbor, and am slowly learning things from her.

Sorry, but where does the actual coconut come from? Is a coconut nut or a fruit?
And does it matter if they are picked of the tree or if they've fallen of it by itself?
I'm not sure I get your post?
 
I am not vegan either. Maybe it matters where the fat came from (ie. an animal) regardless of whether or not it remains in the finished product. It was still used to make it. That would be my guess..?

But then a soap made with our NaOH or KOH can not be organic, as it was made with the man-made lye.

As I said, it was just a chugging of brain wheels, but if someone says "it's a vegan bar as it contains no animal fats and is organic as the lye is reacted and no longer present in the soap" then I see that as somewhat problematic - if a lard based soap "contains" animal fat then a soap made with man-made lye "contains" man-made lye. If a soap made with man-made lye does not contain man-made lye, then a soap made with lard does not contain lard.

ETA - again, this only helps those vegans who do not want to use an animal product personally
 
Some will argue that NaOH is still present just not active (or that it's been neutralized).
 
The vegan people I have met will not use or consume anything from an animal. This includes milk, eggs, honey, beeswax, etc. So even if the animal was not killed for it's fat, it's still a product that comes from an animal, so it is not vegan.
 
There are some degrees of veganism, some with the belief that animals should not be killed for food, others that they personally will eat or use animal products. Also, if animals are killed anyway for food so no animal dies for the fat, does that then change the view?

I don't think so. As many refuse to wear leather even though animals were not killed for the actual skin but for meat.
Honey is also big no. Bees are not actually killed, but I guess number of them is harmed in a process. And they are exploited, used or whatever you call it. Isn't honey also actually their vomit or made by it?
 
The vegan people I have met will not use or consume anything from an animal. This includes milk, eggs, honey, beeswax, etc. So even if the animal was not killed for it's fat, it's still a product that comes from an animal, so it is not vegan.

But they are arguably not consuming an animal product. It WAS an animal product, but it is no longer one.
 
I understand stand your point. It's a tricky area for me when it comes to explaining the scientific aspect of soapmaking. I don't think I would be bothered with trying to go into that detail if I sold soap. I would just list all ingredients (including Sodium Hydroxide) and let them come to their on conclusion. Samething goes if I used organic ingredients.

ETA: I don't use lard or tallow to make soap.
 
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Sorry, but where does the actual coconut come from? Is a coconut nut or a fruit?
And does it matter if they are picked of the tree or if they've fallen of it by itself?
I'm not sure I get your post?

I was just clarifying a bit of a post where it was said the tree had to be harvested to get coconut oil. Botanically, a coconut can be classified as a nut, a fruit or a seed.
 
Technically, TEG, you're correct. But I don't think most vegans would appreciate the distinction.

And this is why I'm not crazy about soap being labelled "organic." It's one thing to say that it's made with organic oils or whatever, but calling the whole soap "organic" is rather like claiming, as you said, that a 0% SF soap made with lard no longer contains any animal fats.

I'm not vegan, so I don't know for sure, but it's my understanding that if animal products were used anywhere in the production process, it's a no-no, whether the animals died in the process or not.
 
They won't use either. Even if it is no longer an animal product, you still used an animal product to create it. So not vegan.

I second this. I've known a fair number of vegans/vegetarians at varying degrees of commitment, but I don't think any of them would be comfortable using a soap that was made with animal products based on a technicality like that.

I am no vegan, as people may have guessed, but then would that mean that vegans can't eat vegetables fertilized with animal manure?

Again I think this comes down to individual views. If it was on a farm where animals were treated humanely etc etc.

I'm not looking to rekindle anything but as an example, it could be said that harvesting palm oil is very harmful to animals, depending on it's source. Someone who wished to live a vegan lifestyle would have to educate themselves on the issue and decide accordingly, but I don't think you'll get a blanket rule about it.
 
""Botanically speaking, a coconut is a fibrous one-seeded drupe, also known as a dry drupe. However, when using loose definitions the coconut can be all three, a fruit, a nut and a seed.""

I looked that up 'cause I wasn't sure. :)

Anyway. I was raised by a vegetarian Grandmother and I know a few vegans. Many are the nice kind who live their lives and don't preach their view and condescend to others. But many aren't very nice....

A vegan is the classification used for a vegetarian with an extra step. No animals products of any kind. Meaning if it came from a bug, an insect, the product of a goat, cow etc ,or the flesh of a slaughtered animal...it's off limits. No honey, no cheese, no milk, no red food coloring made from bugs, no shellac finished wood made from bugs, no jello desserts made from animals etc.

There are also vegans who stay on top of politics and if a product destroys the habitat of animals in any way...that product is also off limits, like the palm oil controversy. Destroying forests and removing the habitat of orangutans for palm oil means that many vegans don't want palm oil either.

So saying that no lard is left in soap isn't enough. You USED the lard in the first place, so that's a no no.

A vegetarian comes in many forms. Many eat butter, cheese etc. An animal isn't harmed to make cheese, but vegans say the animal is "exploited" because the calf is removed from it's mother so we evil humans can steal the milk. Except if you know anything about milking cows...you also know that the average milk cow produces enough milk for 2 1/2 calves. She has plenty for both.

Some vegetarians eat eggs, some don't. Some eat fish, some don't. Etc, etc. You can go on and on about the different philosophy of vegetarianism.

Personally I am omnivorous. I try to do as much as I can to support organics and locally raised meats that respect the animals life before taking it for nourishment. I also believe in using every part of every animal because wasting any part is disrespectful of that animals sacrifice. Soap making with lard and tallow follows this path. It is a great way to use those products...however potato chips and french fries fried in lard and tallow are wonderful!!! :)

In the long run, if we don't raise livestock for harvest, then there will be a whole lot of pigs, chickens, cows, goats and sheep roaming around loose to get themselves in trouble. If we let them roam the streets there will be a whole lot of poo around and that isn't very sanitary. If we don't live with a symbiotic relationship with these animals they will become extinct because they will honestly have no purpose. You are not going to turn working farms into petting zoos.

What many vegetarians don't realize...is that a whole lot of animals die in the act of growing those vegetables. And they are not eaten, they are just slaughtered for being themselves....raiding the crops on farms is a death sentence to many creatures.http://www.soapmakingforum.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/

I am no vegan, as people may have guessed, but then would that mean that vegans can't eat vegetables fertilized with animal manure?

There is a philosophy of gardening that does not use outside products or animal products of any kind. Only green manures that are produced on site. So yes, there are gardeners that follow the no animal by products rule. I'm not sure if it has it's own name or anything, but it's a strict version of biodynamic and permaculture gardening.
 
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Right, a soap is not vegan if any of the things that went into the making it are animal products. Tussah silk, honey, animal milks.

It does not matter what is in the final product, but what was used in the whole production process. Some vegans take it to more of an extreme than others.

I feel often like there are people on this board who are dismissive or a bit condescending about people who want to have a vegetarian (different than vegan I know) soap. Yeah the whole 'I don't want to smear dead animal on me' is kind of silly. Your point about the amount of 'dead animal' left after saponification shows this. Even at a high SF of 10% it just is not that much.

But, if people are veg in their life, and want soap that follows that philosophy, then I don't think it is a bad thing. Is a vegan recipe 'as good' as a recipe with lard? Maybe not but that is subjective. And if John Snow's idea of a good bar is one with no animal products, it is far better than one that does, to him. It night not have the creamy lather of lard, or be rock hard and white as beef tallow, but it will not be miles above the syndets most use.

It is not that I think people usually intend to come off that way. I just think sometimes, they do.

It is kind of like the palm controversy. Refusing to use palm at all is not the answer. Something will be used to replace that palm oil in the production. That means that some other crop (that might be far more damaging to the environment to cultivate and harvest) will need to be found. It means that all the families of farmers that grow palm will no longer be able to support themselves - and palm already comes from some of the poorest regions of the world. So, it is far better to search for ways to source palm from sustainable sources, teach the growers how to take care of their land better so they quit clear cutting, and increase demand for sustainable palm. I did a lot of research on RSPO and sent letters and talked to a couple people I know associated with Greenpeace. Different people in that org have different opinions, but people I trust say RSPO is not a bad group of people, and they are working as hard as they can on their mission. It is not just a cover org made up of corporate shills to pull the wool over our eyes.
 

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