Water discount

[Cactuslily]

Up until now, I've been using soapcalcs default setting and using full water. After reading much on the effects of water and mottling, I want to reduce my water, as I often get the mottling. My concern is that it's going to speed up trace significantly. My ultimate goal is 1.4:1 water :lye ratio. Should I just go for it? Or should I slowly lower my water %? I know other factors will affect trace, I'm just focusing on the water for now. Suggestions? Thoughts? Truly appreciated.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

That might well be a hefty jump. What is the rest of the recipe? Are you looking to colour? What sort of scent are you using?

 

[Cactuslily]

I haven't chosen a specific recipe or FO yet. I know other things will add to acceleration, but my mottling (rivers) isn't something I want, and the only answer I've found is to decrease my water. Is there anything else I can do? I'm thinking of decreasing my water little by little to see how that goes for me. What would be a prudent starting point for discount do you think?

 

[cmzaha]

1.4:1 is going to push it depending on your recipe. That will come out to approx at 41% lye concentration. I do have a recipe, containing lard, olive, coconut, avocado that I can soap at 40% concentration depending on my fo, but it is not my favorite recipe. If you make the same soap recipe you will learn how it works, but it will take a few batches to figure out what can then be done, but then along comes the cranky fo that messes with it. I would start discounting using a 32-33% lye concentration (the second choice in soapcalc) and work down from there.
As for you mottling and rivers are you by chance using water td? I have always had trouble with water td, but higher liquid does cause higher heat during gel which can also lead up to separation during gel. Low liquid can cause the soap to be hard to gel

 

[Cactuslily]

Hi Carolyn, I've used both water and oil soluble TD, and haven't noticed a differance. For some reason, white is the hardest color for me to achieve, despite using oils/butters that should help :-(
I'll use your suggestion as a starting point and see what happens.

 

[not_ally]

CL, I've always thought that the mottling/glycerin rivers came from TD as well. I don't get that effect unless I am using TD, especially if it is more rather than less. We've talked about this on other posts, I have tried several and have a big batch of ss.net oil soluble TD that will be the next tester in that respect, I am hoping that works. Do think that it is not always possible to avoid, but would like to minimize it.

Although I do full water, so don't know how that would effect things and hope you will post to tell if it makes a difference for you.

 

[DeeAnna]

You might not have to make that drastic of a change, Cactuslily. Jumping to 41% is huge.

Try a lye concentration more like 30% to 32% first, if you've been making your recipe so far with "full water" (I'm assuming that's about 28% lye concentration). Really truly -- just increasing the lye concentration only a few percent is enough to make a big change in how a recipe works, including whether it mottles or not.

I prefer using the lye concentration setting rather than anything else, because it's mentally easier for me to make small tweaks to a percentage. Making tiny changes to the water:lye ratio setting just doesn't feel the same to me. Yeah, I know it's not very scientific, but there ya go.

 

[not_ally]

So DeeAnna, is a soap less likely to mottle with a water discount? One of the myriad things I did/do not know.

 

[newbie]

I've gotten streaking and spotting in uncolored soap. It's more difficult to see, but not when you are using a discoloring FO. Just had it happen and as the soap is darkening, it's very apparent.

Try one pound batches for your water discounting to see what the difference is. The temp at which you soap and the FO will make a difference so you will have to figure out what directions those factors take you. Lionprincess soaps almost always at a 1.4:1 water to lye ratio and doesn't have problems. An accelerating FO will still be an accelerating FO though and I've found that my recipe goes faster if oils and lye water cool, at that ratio. I have a recipe with a lot of hard oils. May be different if you are working with a recipe with high amounts of soft oils.

 

[not_ally]

Newbie, this is one of the hard things when you are still starting out. I use a basic formula which I like - mostly lard (or maybe some % of tallow), then oo/co/a bit of castor and EDTA and sugar. But it takes *so* long to figure out how one small change changes the soap. Let alone a big thing like water discounting, especially if you want to swirl a batch. My batches are relatively small, too (1-3 lbs of oils), and I still produce way more soap than I could ever hope to use. It is such a long process, one of the reasons I wonder why people leap willy-nilly into selling. Sometimes I wish I could skip the learning curve and then realize that even that part is fun and instructive. This is not really a response to your post as much as the thought process of how much I have to learn.

 

[Cactuslily]

Not_ally, check out auntieclaras blog where she does a lovely photographed experiment altering water to lye ratio. Thats where my thinking began from. As always, I'm so grateful to all you generous soapers who share wisdom and help guide this newbie in her soaping journey.

 

[DeeAnna]

So DeeAnna, is a soap less likely to mottle with a water discount?...

Yes, it is less likely. Cactuslily suggests Auntie Clara's blog and that's one of the best places to go for this. Kevin Dunn also touches on this issue. If a soap doesn't go into gel during saponification, it is less likely to show mottling. If the soap contains less water, the gel temp is higher and the soap is not as likely to go into gel.

IMO, it's a bit of a balancing act to find the right combination of variables that let your soap batter stay fluid and workable long enough ... but don't cause trouble with mottling or going into gel if you don't want either. Pigments like TD make the mottle easier to see, but even without TD, a soap can mottle. It's just that the pattern is harder to see.

For example, I have a nice high-lard recipe that I really like. With a 33% lye solution, this recipe tends to get a bit too thick too fast. I tried a 30% lye solution with otherwise the same recipe, and the batter stayed really fluid for a long time. That was a step in the right direction, but I also started to see mottling. (I don't use TD, for what it's worth). I increased the concentration to 31% and got plenty of open time and no mottling.

I realize these are one-time results, but I'd say a change of just a percent or three is enough of a tweak when trying to refine how the soap behaves.