Trading out CO for Babassu and trying Tallow, both firsts

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LoveOscar

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I'm nervous about this one. I have Babassu being delivered tomorrow, and I have some self rendered Tallow sitting in the freezer. I have not used either in soap before. I was playing with SoapCalc and really paying attention to my fatty acid property numbers. I like the numbers I have come up with, and want to hear some thoughts.

My goals are lots of bubbles with a nice hard bar, not super drying. SF is set at 5% but is possibly more considering SoapCalc is (last I checked) iffy with lye purity and I have no idea how pure my pure lye is.

5% Castor and 5% Sunflower for bubbles. I've read that SO is a good companion oil to OO, and a lot of people like adding a small percent to their soaps for bubbles. Babassu, I'm excited about, because I've read it is a similar cleansing oil to coconut, but more conditioning. I know my cleansing number is high, but I am hoping the SF and SO will help balance that. I was looking for another hard oil to use to balance the Babassu and OO, and I wasn't liking the way the numbers were looking with Babassu and Coconut, and I don't have PO or PKO. I recently rendered some Tallow from beef suet, so I plugged that into the calculator.

Whatcha think? :think:

 

cmzaha

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I would lower the babassu down to the low 20's, and I really do not think you will notice much difference with babassu versus coconut. PKO is much less expensive and works well for a no coconut or coconut mix. I personally would up this sunflower to 15%, but then I love sunflower oil. I know some here like the higher range of coconut/ cleansing oils, I do not, but it does cost getting big bubbles. I save my babassu for lotions and balms
 

doriettefarm

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That would be way too cleansing for me! I'd agree with lowering the amount of babassu . . . it's expensive so don't use more than you need to. I also like carolyn's suggestion to increase the sunflower plus I would up the tallow (for a harder bar) and bump the castor to 10% for more bubbles.
 

Arimara

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Take about 10% off that babassu and reallocate it to the tallow or the olive oil. That will drop your cleansing to a less scary number. To bring it even lower, try 40% tallow, 30% olive, 20% babassu, 5% sunflower and 5% castor oil.

Personally, I'm yet convinced with how powerful a cleansing oil babassu is but I have not yet soaped with more than 17% of it.
 
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topofmurrayhill

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As I always say, babassu is coconut oil for those who think coconut oil doesn't cost enough. The best coconut alternative, all considered, is PKO.

I tend to disagree with the "oh my gosh too much cleansing!" crowd. You can't judge a recipe by any one oil no matter what the some simpleminded lye calculator says. It's about balance. General rule with CO (or equivalents like PKO or babassu) is up to 30%. For any amount you use you just have to know how to balance the recipe.

The HO sunflower is pretty useless in this recipe. HO sunflower has nothing whatsoever to do with regular sunflower oil. It's a totally different thing. It's like olive oil but softer, and actually you are better off using OO in this case. I suggest you ditch the SO. You need to drop the babassu to about 25%, keep the castor at 5%, and allocate the rest between OO and Tallow. Don't worry, you'll have more than enough lather.

Have fun.
 

LoveOscar

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At this point in time the babassu oil has cost me less than the coconut, because of source. About $16-17 for 30oz (Bulk Apothecary) vs $18-19 for 29oz of coconut (Krogers).

If this is the general opinion, I'll scrap this and go with my original planned tallow recipe instead.

Thank you.
 

Barbsbreakingbath

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Babassu

If you ever decide to branch out, Babassu makes a great ingredient for a lotion bar, along with Shea butter and beeswax, or for a body butter. You may get more value out of your oil that way, if you ever want to give it a try.
 

topofmurrayhill

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At this point in time the babassu oil has cost me less than the coconut, because of source. About $16-17 for 30oz (Bulk Apothecary) vs $18-19 for 29oz of coconut (Krogers).

If this is the general opinion, I'll scrap this and go with my original planned tallow recipe instead.

Thank you.
Since you have it you can certainly use it in place of coconut oil. Soapers choice sells 7 lb babassu for $30, and the same amount of CO for less than $13.
 

cmzaha

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As I always say, babassu is coconut oil for those who think coconut oil doesn't cost enough. The best coconut alternative, all considered, is PKO.

I tend to disagree with the "oh my gosh too much cleansing!" crowd. You can't judge a recipe by any one oil no matter what the some simpleminded lye calculator says. It's about balance. General rule with CO (or equivalents like PKO or babassu) is up to 30%. For any amount you use you just have to know how to balance the recipe.

The HO sunflower is pretty useless in this recipe. HO sunflower has nothing whatsoever to do with regular sunflower oil. It's a totally different thing. It's like olive oil but softer, and actually you are better off using OO in this case. I suggest you ditch the SO. You need to drop the babassu to about 25%, keep the castor at 5%, and allocate the rest between OO and Tallow. Don't worry, you'll have more than enough lather.

Have fun.
I missed noticing it was HO sunflower. I use regular sunflower with no issues. I also use and love regular Canola in soap with no dos issues up to 20%
 

IrishLass

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Right here, silly!
I agree with TOMH that the 5% HO sunflower in your formula is really not bringing anything significant to the party. If it were me and I really wanted to use it in this formula, I would either use it as a total replacement for the olive oil, or else I would not use it at all.

Also- you need have no worries about your lather. With the amount of babassu alone, you'll have more bubbles than you'll know what to do with, especially when paired with the 5% castor, which is a good addition, btw. The castor won't add bubbles, but it will lend a beautiful oomphy depth of quality to the bubbles already present from the babassu. I find that its addition is like turning the bass up on the stereo.

As for the amount of babassu....speaking only for myself and my own skin-preferences, the babassu amount in this formula is much too high for the level of super-fatting you have. If I were me making it and I wanted to keep the recipe 'as-is', I would bump the super-fat up to about 10% or so to keep my skin from feeling sucked bone-dry. This is coming from the lass who likes to use a lot of coconut and PKO in her formulas (28% to 31.5%).

For what its worth, if I were to totally reformulate your recipe to my own liking (and the personal likes of my family), I would do something along the lines of this:

Olive oil 34%
Tallow 30%
Babassu 28%
Castor oil 8%
Superfat @ 8%


IrishLass :)


PS
As I always say, babassu is coconut oil for those who think coconut oil doesn't cost enough.
I've never heard anyone put it quite like that before. Thank you for eliciting my first giggle of the day. lol
 

Arimara

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At this point in time the babassu oil has cost me less than the coconut, because of source. About $16-17 for 30oz (Bulk Apothecary) vs $18-19 for 29oz of coconut (Krogers).

If this is the general opinion, I'll scrap this and go with my original planned tallow recipe instead.

Thank you.
I say try it. I have used coconut oil, palm kernal flakes and babassu oil and I personally like babassu best, followed by coconut. the two of them together make for a really nice soap. with plenty of bubbles if that's your thing.

As with your recipe, it's the cleansing feeling that your tallow can give a soap that is leaving me scratching my head.
 

LoveOscar

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I read somewhere in my searches on SMF that a few soapers really like adding a little bit of Sunflower Oil to their Olive Oil. I plug in HO Sunflower in the calculator because I have the "Great for Frying" oil, and assume HO as what I have read somewhere else on SMF.

I originally did not want to use tallow, as I want a separate tallow recipe planned for the 2 lbs of tallow that I have. I was just adding and subtracting the oils I have in my 'library' on SoapCalc and purely looking at the numbers in quality range. Tallow gave me the numbers I was looking for. I really wanted an animal free soap. I don't have palm, so I don't use palm. Babassu is a rare order, as I can't find it locally, but I really wanted to try it.

My SF is normally in the range of 6-8%. Outside of my salt bars, I've only played with coconut up to 28% with an 8% SF.

My tallow recipe is 70% tallow, 15% coconut, 5% castor, and 10% soft oils (which ever one or combination of I choose: sunflower, avocado, hemp, tamanu, etc). I could do coconut in one, and babassu as the replacement in a second batch, and see which I like better.

Thank you everyone!
 

Arimara

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I read somewhere in my searches on SMF that a few soapers really like adding a little bit of Sunflower Oil to their Olive Oil. I plug in HO Sunflower in the calculator because I have the "Great for Frying" oil, and assume HO as what I have read somewhere else on SMF.

I originally did not want to use tallow, as I want a separate tallow recipe planned for the 2 lbs of tallow that I have. I was just adding and subtracting the oils I have in my 'library' on SoapCalc and purely looking at the numbers in quality range. Tallow gave me the numbers I was looking for. I really wanted an animal free soap. I don't have palm, so I don't use palm. Babassu is a rare order, as I can't find it locally, but I really wanted to try it.

My SF is normally in the range of 6-8%. Outside of my salt bars, I've only played with coconut up to 28% with an 8% SF.

My tallow recipe is 70% tallow, 15% coconut, 5% castor, and 10% soft oils (which ever one or combination of I choose: sunflower, avocado, hemp, tamanu, etc). I could do coconut in one, and babassu as the replacement in a second batch, and see which I like better.

Thank you everyone!
If that's what you want to try, try it. I've not yet done a coconut oil vs babassu in a soap recipe. I might rethink that. :)
 

lenarenee

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I read somewhere in my searches on SMF that a few soapers really like adding a little bit of Sunflower Oil to their Olive Oil. I plug in HO Sunflower in the calculator because I have the "Great for Frying" oil, and assume HO as what I have read somewhere else on SMF.

I originally did not want to use tallow, as I want a separate tallow recipe planned for the 2 lbs of tallow that I have. I was just adding and subtracting the oils I have in my 'library' on SoapCalc and purely looking at the numbers in quality range. Tallow gave me the numbers I was looking for. I really wanted an animal free soap. I don't have palm, so I don't use palm. Babassu is a rare order, as I can't find it locally, but I really wanted to try it.

My SF is normally in the range of 6-8%. Outside of my salt bars, I've only played with coconut up to 28% with an 8% SF.

My tallow recipe is 70% tallow, 15% coconut, 5% castor, and 10% soft oils (which ever one or combination of I choose: sunflower, avocado, hemp, tamanu, etc). I could do coconut in one, and babassu as the replacement in a second batch, and see which I like better.

Thank you everyone!
You've never done a tallow bar before? Then I would suggest using the more "conditioning" oil in your recipe.
 

KristaY

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I read somewhere in my searches on SMF that a few soapers really like adding a little bit of Sunflower Oil to their Olive Oil. I plug in HO Sunflower in the calculator because I have the "Great for Frying" oil, and assume HO as what I have read somewhere else on SMF.
I used to assume "great for frying" meant HO also, until I did the math. I bought high heat canola thinking it was high oleic but it was really mid oleic. Here's the amazingly informative & helpful info posted by DeeAnna in the "Geek Tips" thread, post #5. Takes the guesswork out of the elusive high, mid & low oleic values!

Geek Tip -- The difference between high-, mid-, and low-oleic oils

Safflower and sunflower oils are sold in high oleic, mid oleic, and linoleic (regular low oleic) versions depending on the amount of oleic acid in the oil. The differences in the fatty acid content comes from natural variations in sunflower and safflower plants. These differences have been enhanced by conventional plant breeding methods.

Regular low oleic (aka linoleic) oils contain mostly polyunsaturated fatty acids -- specifically linoleic and linolenic acids. These fatty acids become rancid fairly quickly in storage and break down quickly when heated. Mid oleic and high oleic oils contain at least 50% oleic acid, which is a more stable monounsaturated fatty acid. These higher-oleic oils will not break down as fast when used in the kitchen for frying and sauteeing. They work better in soap because they are not as prone to becoming rancid (also called DOS, dreaded orange spots). High oleic safflower or sunflower is a good substitute for olive oil.

So how to tell the difference? First, check the label for phrases such as "good for frying or sauteeing" or "high temperature" or even "high oleic," all of which will tell you the oil is a high oleic version.

If you don't see any helpful information like that, then use the nutrition information to calculate an answer --

% oleic (monounsaturated) = (grams monounsaturated fat per serving) / (grams total fat per serving) X 100%

If the monounsaturated fat is above 75%, it is a high-oleic oil.
If it is between 50% and 70%, it would be a mid-oleic oil.
If it is about 20%, it would be regular (linoleic) version.
 

LoveOscar

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I used to assume "great for frying" meant HO also, until I did the math. I bought high heat canola thinking it was high oleic but it was really mid oleic. Here's the amazingly informative & helpful info posted by DeeAnna in the "Geek Tips" thread, post #5. Takes the guesswork out of the elusive high, mid & low oleic values!
Thank you KristaY! I just checked. It is mid oleic! :mrgreen:
 

Arimara

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I'm back and I'm not tired: I strongly suggest you consider lowering your beef tallow to work with the coconut oil. If you lowered it to 50%, you will still have a plenty hard bar (I promise). I'm only saying this because of the cleansing nature of beef tallow and since it's your first time using it, it would be a more prudent move. IN the chance you find it's too cleansing, you will be glad you didn't use 70% and if you feel you could have added more, you still have a decent soap.
 

Susie

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At this point in time the babassu oil has cost me less than the coconut, because of source. About $16-17 for 30oz (Bulk Apothecary) vs $18-19 for 29oz of coconut (Krogers).

If this is the general opinion, I'll scrap this and go with my original planned tallow recipe instead.

Thank you.
Essential Depot has 2 gallons (16 + lbs) of CO for $44.45 with free shipping. That is 0.17/oz compared to Kroger at 0.65/oz. Or, you can order the: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00J82XU1M/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20 at 0.18/oz if you have Prime.

I ordered the CO from ED last year, and just this weekend melted and portioned out the second gallon.
 
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LoveOscar

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I'm back and I'm not tired: I strongly suggest you consider lowering your beef tallow to work with the coconut oil. If you lowered it to 50%, you will still have a plenty hard bar (I promise). I'm only saying this because of the cleansing nature of beef tallow and since it's your first time using it, it would be a more prudent move. IN the chance you find it's too cleansing, you will be glad you didn't use 70% and if you feel you could have added more, you still have a decent soap.
In a different thread, we went over that one already. Tallow Recipe 8% SF. We'll see in a few weeks if it's overly drying.
 
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