To Superfat Or Not to Superfat...That Is the Question

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I may be off base here and it may have already been addressed in an earlier post, but my understanding is that superfatting up front in the recipe by way of a lye calculator doesn't cause you to add more oils but rather discounts the lye so you would be using the same weight of oils but a bit less lye. Again, I could be wrong here, and feel free to correct me if I am, but that was always my understanding from everything I've read over the years. Now superfatting after saponification on a hot process recipe...I believe that would add slightly to the oils you were using, although not by much unless you were cooking a particularly large batch.
 
I keep my superfat around 2% and love the feel. I just adjust the the recipe to be more moisturizing, low cleansing. Also we found our plumbing is much better since I stopped the higher superfatting. With my turpentine laundry sticks I did a -4% (yes minus) and they do not zap or are they noticeably drying.
 
"...superfatting up front in the recipe by way of a lye calculator doesn't cause you to add more oils but rather discounts the lye so you would be using the same weight of oils but a bit less lye..."

"...Now superfatting after saponification on a hot process recipe...I believe that would add slightly to the oils you were using..."

Yes to both, Scotsman. Nicely said!

Superfatting-by-using-less-lye is lye discount.

Superfatting-by-adding-extra-fat-after-saponification is ... superfatting.

The extra fat left in the soap after either method is ... superfat.

Real clear, ain't it? :)
 
Exactly. The drawback to the lye discount being that there's no way of knowing what percentage of what oil is left after saponification. Unless there is a way to calculate this that has escaped me, lol!
 
Thanks everyone for all of your help!
It looks like I'll try to SF at 5%.
I'm just not sure which one I'll use just yet. I also am concerned about using too much oils which may cause problems with plumbing in the future :-/
 
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Thanks everyone for all of your help!
It looks like I'll try to SF at 5%.
I'm just not sure which one I'll use just yet. I also am concerned about using too much oils which may cause problems with plumbing in the future :-/

It looks like a good recipe, 5% would be a good sf for it. I would put all the oils in at once and don't worry about which one to use for superfat. Even with HP it really doesn't make that much difference IMO.

Unless there is something wrong with your plumbing already, handmade soap shouldn't hurt it at all.
 
It looks like a good recipe, 5% would be a good sf for it. I would put all the oils in at once and don't worry about which one to use for superfat. Even with HP it really doesn't make that much difference IMO.



Unless there is something wrong with your plumbing already, handmade soap shouldn't hurt it at all.


Thanks for your response new12soap!

I'm going to try to find Shea butter locally.
 
"...no way of knowing what percentage of what oil is left after saponification. Unless there is a way to calculate this that has escaped me, lol! ..."

Nothing has escaped you on this issue -- one really doesn't know. Kevin Dunn did some experiments to explore this issue. The fats left in the soap after saponification were in different percentages than the fats that he started with.

The thinking used to be that adding an oil at trace "saved" that particular oil to be the superfat, but testing has shown this idea to not be correct. Saponification is just getting started nicely by the time a soap reaches trace, so there is a lot of lye still left in the batter to react with an oil added at trace.

The only way to have a reasonable control of the superfat is to hot process using a zero lye discount and add the superfat after the cook.

I'm not that hung up on controlling what's in the superfat, but that's just me. To each their own.
 
I'm also not terribly concerned with what exactly is left from my super fat. For me it's more just a way to give myself a small insurance policy against being left with a lye-heavy soap. Even the obscenely expensive commercial digital scales are often off by a gram or two even with regular calibration. A gram or two may not make much of a difference in a 10lb batch of soap but if you're doing a 1lb test batch or even a single bar test batch a gram or two very well might mean the rubbish bin or a re-batch...and I detest re-batching.
Usually, if I'm looking to add particular qualities to a recipe that will survive the saponification process I will use cosmetic additives or incorporate an oil with a higher percentage of unsaponifiables such as avocado oil. I actually have a base recipe that only uses lard, CO, OO, and castor and it's one of the best soaps I've ever used. Heck, you could make a mighty fine two oil soap if you have at least a working knowledge of the chemistry behind the curtain and a general idea of what qualities each oil will bring to the table after saponification. When I first started out I spent months researching and learning everything I could about the chemistry of soap making before I even attempted my first batch. Even beyond it being invaluable information to know I also find it incredibly fascinating. I've always really dug chemistry, even as a young child. That's one of the reasons I pursued a career as a chef. Cooking, and especially baking, in its purest form is chemistry. The chefs who practice molecular gastronomy understand the chemistry of food on a much deeper level than most and are thus able to manipulate food in amazing and ingenious ways.
 
I'm also not terribly concerned with what exactly is left from my super fat. For me it's more just a way to give myself a small insurance policy against being left with a lye-heavy soap. Even the obscenely expensive commercial digital scales are often off by a gram or two even with regular calibration. A gram or two may not make much of a difference in a 10lb batch of soap but if you're doing a 1lb test batch or even a single bar test batch a gram or two very well might mean the rubbish bin or a re-batch...and I detest re-batching.
Usually, if I'm looking to add particular qualities to a recipe that will survive the saponification process I will use cosmetic additives or incorporate an oil with a higher percentage of unsaponifiables such as avocado oil. I actually have a base recipe that only uses lard, CO, OO, and castor and it's one of the best soaps I've ever used. Heck, you could make a mighty fine two oil soap if you have at least a working knowledge of the chemistry behind the curtain and a general idea of what qualities each oil will bring to the table after saponification. When I first started out I spent months researching and learning everything I could about the chemistry of soap making before I even attempted my first batch. Even beyond it being invaluable information to know I also find it incredibly fascinating. I've always really dug chemistry, even as a young child. That's one of the reasons I pursued a career as a chef. Cooking, and especially baking, in its purest form is chemistry. The chefs who practice molecular gastronomy understand the chemistry of food on a much deeper level than most and are thus able to manipulate food in amazing and ingenious ways.


Thanks for your information!
I have been reading lots of forums and watching lots of videos this past month and I finally built up the courage to do my first batch a week ago. My recipe is exactly what you stated (lard, CO, OO, and castor).
I found this recipe from another soaper and this is one of her favorites. I am pleased with it and probably will use this one often.

Cooking is a favorite of mine also. I live in southern Louisiana and down here we "live to eat". Lol
 
If you don't mind me asking, what % of each oil are you using? I do mine with 40% lard, 30% CO, 25% OO, & 5% castor. I know, the CO is higher than most people are comfortable using but honestly I've never had a single bar from this recipe ever be the least bit drying to the skin and these ones have been a consistent customer favorite even over ones with some of the more luxury oils/butters. Go figure. Often there is a wonderful elegance in simplicity. Why muck it up by overloading it with a million ingredients? I like simple, and apparently my customers do as well. I also don't generally do advanced coloring/swirling techniques in all but a few of the soaps I sell. The ones I use to practice coloring typically go as gifts to loved ones...assuming my fiancée doesn't bugger off with them before I get a chance to package them and send them out, lol!
 
I wonder if the "too drying" just isn't truly a skin to skin (individual) effect. I was excited to decrease my massive lotion consumption in the winter months, but no. Even with a 20% super fat in my one bar as my girlfriends of colour would say I'm starting to look "ashy". Pretty funny for a super pale girl. My skin has zero oil content on its own past mid fall.
 
If you don't mind me asking, what % of each oil are you using? I do mine with 40% lard, 30% CO, 25% OO, & 5% castor. I know, the CO is higher than most people are comfortable using but honestly I've never had a single bar from this recipe ever be the least bit drying to the skin and these ones have been a consistent customer favorite even over ones with some of the more luxury oils/butters. Go figure. Often there is a wonderful elegance in simplicity. Why muck it up by overloading it with a million ingredients? I like simple, and apparently my customers do as well. I also don't generally do advanced coloring/swirling techniques in all but a few of the soaps I sell. The ones I use to practice coloring typically go as gifts to loved ones...assuming my fiancée doesn't bugger off with them before I get a chance to package them and send them out, lol!


My recipe is 40% Lard, 20% OO, 35% CO, 5% Castor. Yesterday I ordered Shea butter to superfat. I hope I'm happy with it. It isn't refined, it states that it's raw. I've read some people would rather the refined because the smell isn't as strong as unrefined. I look forward to experimenting in swirls and all the pretty designs but my biggest goal is to make sure the fragrance is strong enough. I'm all about fragrance!.
 
Your recipe is almost the same as mine, only a small difference in the % of OO & CO. Great minds think alike right? When I use shea butter I get the unrefined stuff as well. I've read a few places that the refining process destroys some of the beneficial qualities in it. I don't know if that's actually true or not, as there are quite a few erroneous ideas pervading the soap making community that are touted as fact so I would have to conduct more in-depth research before I would wholly believe that. But even if it is true, it then begs the question: How much of those beneficial qualities even survive the process of saponification anyway? In lotions and other leave-on type products the choice of oils due to their properties I imagine would be essential. I haven't really done anything but occasionally dabble in that arena of the industry as I live in Florida and our state laws prohibit selling anything that the FDA defines as a cosmetic unless you have a dedicated and state licensed manufacturing facility. The law prohibits selling cosmetic products manufactured in a residential space. While I do have a pretty cool workshop, and observe strict quality and safety protocols, at the end of the day it means nothing in the eyes of the law because my workshop is located in my home. Because of this I stick strictly to making only true soap and stick with ingredients whose qualities I know will, at least in part, survive the saponification process. I do sometimes use shea butter, but it's more for label appeal. Personally I haven't noticed much difference between my soap made with it and without it. That just could be me though because I've got skin as tough as a rhino anyway, lol! My fiancée, however, swears by my shea butter soap and says it does wonders for her skin. I do buy the unrefined stuff, but only because it is cheaper. I haven't noticed any issues with an unpleasant odor. It does have an aroma out of the container that can vary anywhere from nutty to slightly smoky depending on the individual batch you get. I wouldn't say it's unpleasant though and I've never had the aroma transfer through to the finished product. I imagine that all the beneficial properties of the shea butter would remain if you make hot process soap and use the shea to super fat after saponification, but I can't speak with anything more than theoretical knowledge on this as I don't make hot process soap. As it is I detest re-batching and avoid it like the plague. My understanding is that this process is similar to HP so, as of yet, I've avoided HP as well. I stick strictly to CP. I like it and it works well for me.
 
Scotsman,

Yes I believe great minds do think alike...lol.
Btw....do you superfat with the other oils or do you add them after saponification? I know some do with the others and some wait till the end. Not sure when I'll add mine.

I think just out of curiosity, one day I will attempt HP. It looks so interesting and fun!
 
I do mine with 40% lard, 30% CO, 25% OO, & 5% castor. I know, the CO is higher than most people are comfortable using but honestly I've never had a single bar from this recipe ever be the least bit drying to the skin

I had just been following this topic but I wanted to concur with scotsman that 40% lard, 30% CO makes a very nice soap. Amazingly, I can make this with 5% superfat and it's still not drying. I generally keep coconut at 25% or below when using water as liquid but I did experiment with a few batches by changing the percentages to increase CO. I found increasing lard and CO slightly was not drying for my skin and I have very dry skin. Now this is with lard because 30% CO with all veg oils was drying for my skin. However, my nephews liked this soap and didn't find it drying.

Everyone is different and what is preferred by one person isn't necessarily going to be considered a nice soap by another person. This is a good example of why we recommend tweaking percentages. I generally recommend 25% CO for people who are beginning to make soap since I don't know their preferences and I don't know how accurate they may be with weighing ingredients. Plus, I still use a lower CO percentage in facial bars but again, this is personal preference.

BTW, I can also increase CO percentage in bastile since olive is so conditioning.
 
"...40% lard, 30% CO makes a very nice soap. Amazingly, I can make this with 5% superfat and it's still not drying...."

Hazel's observation about different fats affecting mildness reinforces my thoughts. I think the specific types of fats in a recipe are just as or even more important as superfat to get a mild, non-drying soap.

Hear, hear! :)
 
Hazel and Deanna

I'm just realizing I gave the wrong amounts. This is the recipe I use: 40% lard, 20% co, 35% oo, 5% castor. I had my co and lard mixed up.
I read many times not to use more than 25% co or it could be too drying.
I made my second batch today using this recipe and it's very easy to work with especially since I'm new at this addicting hobby...lol.
I really need to find a good FO that smells good. I will be placing an order soon and so overwhelmed with all the scents. I would love to find a nice clean smelling FO.
 
Juniper Aloe from Elements Bath & Body is a nice, clean scent. Scent projects well in the finished product, even after a long cure. Manuka Lavender Body Wrap, Country Clothesline, and Rosemary Mint, also from EBB, are clean smelling and have a nice strong throw in cp soap. These FO's are also well-behaved. No discoloration, ricing, seizing, or trace acceleration. To the earlier question, my super fat is actually a lye discount, so that is factored in up front. I typically only use a 5-7% lye discount, so not really going to have any substantial excess of oils in the finished product. It's merely an insurance policy against a lye-heavy soap.
 
So I was on page 2 and wrote a response... then realised that this thread goes up to page 4.
Have deleted my comment as it now makes no sense.

Be nice to me, I'm sick! :(
(Maybe I should get off the forums until my head works again...)
 
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