To Gel Or Not To Gel? That is the question...

[penelopejane]

^^^ I gel my honey and my milk soaps too. I use the split method but I just mix my honey into the oils. I soap warm, though, at 110*F and haven’t had an overheating problem.
IL’s method of adding the honey to the lye sounds foolproof!

Dean:
Although the gelled part in a partial gel soap weirdly wears away first, a fully gel soap lasts well for me.

 

[SaltedFig]

@SaltedFig, that is one of the most concise and informative posts I've read about gel. Thank you! I may just copy and paste your response into my notes so I can find it again.

Thank you @Misschief

SaltedFig, your post was most excellent!

Thankyou @IrishLass

I just wanted to beam in on your last paragraph, because I never seem to experience that which you wrote about the crackle. It's an extremely rare thing that my soap ever comes down with crackle/glycerin rivers. I soap at 33% lye concentration, place in a warm (turned off) oven to encourage gel and leave it there overnight for 18 to 24 hours before unmolding (a slow cool). I believe I've been able to track down the culprit that causes it, though....at least with my own formulas at any rate: the only times I ever seemed to get the crackle is when my soap experiences a hotter than normal gel, because of the particular FO with which I've soaped (I'm looking at you Kentish Rain from BB!). Whenever I've soap with that particular FO, I got a hotter than normal gel.....and a resulting crackle.

The last paragraph is written from the point that crackle is occurring - it is about how to reduce or exaggerate it using the cooling period after the gel. (... 'a slow cool allows more crackle to develop, and a fast cool "sets" the soap and minimizes crackle' ...)

To get the crackle going in the first place is dependent on a number of factors, including recipe (disparate fatty acids are needed), water content (high water soaps crackles more easily/at a lower temperature) and temperature (as you have noted, a lower water soap will need a higher temperature to begin to crackle).

On your observation that you never experience crackle in your 33% lye concentration CPOP soaps unless there is a heating FO involved - that makes a lot of sense! Your water is moderate, which means the temperature needs to be increased slightly to achieve a decent crackle - the same soap, at 28% lye concentration, would likely not need any heating FO to crackle

Trivia: The crackle that I found the hardest to create (so far) was the coconut salt bar I made for the minimalist challenge - that needed to be taken up to near volcano point to get the crackle effect (it involved a lot of "helicopter soaping", to get enough heat in, without taking it too far ).

@dixiedragon Are there any issues to watch out for, when adding honey into the HP soap batter by stickblending it in just before the pour?

...@SaltedFig you are a treasure!

Thank you for the comment @Clarice ... the funny thing is - I AM literally sparkly at the moment (I've been testing bio-degradeable glitter!)

@hungryhawaiian Welcome to the addiction

 

[Dean]

Thank you @Misschief

Thankyou @IrishLass

The last paragraph was written from the point that crackle is already occurring - it was about how to reduce or exaggerate it using the cooling period after the gel.
(... 'a slow cool allows more crackle to develop, and a fast cool "sets" the soap and minimizes crackle' ...)

To get the crackle going in the first place is dependent on a number of factors, including recipe (disparate fatty acids are needed), water content (high water soaps crackles more easily/at a lower temperature) and temperature (as you have noted, a lower water soap will need a higher temperature to begin to crackle).

On your observation that you never experience crackle in your 33% lye concentration CPOP soaps unless there is a heating FO involved - that makes a lot of sense! Your water is moderate, which means the temperature needs to be increased slightly to achieve a decent crackle - the same soap, at 28% lye concentration, would likely not need any heating FO to crackle

Trivia: The crackle that I found the hardest to create (so far) was the coconut salt bar I made for the minimalist challenge - that needed to be taken up to near volcano point to get the crackle effect (it involved a lot of "helicopter soaping", to get enough heat in, without taking it too far ).

@dixiedragon I follow a similar process to IrishLass to make my CP beer, beeswax and honey soap (I also melt my beeswax separately with some hard fats), but I still add my honey to the batter. I think this is possible because my recipes tend to be quite cool (they move very slowly), but my soap still needs to have the insulation off as soon as it's gelled (I slab mold mine, so the heat comes out pretty quick once it's open).
I have tried IrishLass's technique, with the honey in the lye solution, and it works brilliantly for keeping the heat out of the soap batter, so I would (and do) recommend IrishLass's technique to anyone who needs to take the heat out of honey soaps

Having said that, I do like the idea of stickblending honey into HP soap batter just before the pour - @dixiedragon are there any issues to watch out for, adding the honey that way?



Thank you for the comment @Clarice ... the funny thing is - I AM literally sparkly at the moment (I've been testing bio-degradeable glitter!)

@hungryhawaiian Welcome to the addiction

I always appreciate ur intelligent, unbiassed and objective responses. I was just saying so to another member. In my book...

 

[Marilyn Norgart]

I need to re-read and re-read this. thanks

 

[Dawni]

I should say HP is the best way to ensure a full gel lol

@Dean, most of my HP bars don't bend either. The ones that have cured the longest, in fact, break apart in pieces when they're a sliver, not bend. Maybe you used too much water in those particular ones?

@SaltedFig I'm not dixiedragon but from the little experience I have with honey, one danger adding it into HP batter before pouring is not being able to mix enough/properly before the whole thing thickens. My first soap with honey has small brown pieces of "crystallized" honey within the soap that I suspect I didn't dilute properly and didn't mix properly.

I need to re-read and re-read this. thanks

Me too! Haha

 

[Dean]

I should say HP is the best way to ensure a full gel lol

@Dean, most of my HP bars don't bend either. The ones that have cured the longest, in fact, break apart in pieces when they're a sliver, not bend. Maybe you used too much water in those particular ones?

@SaltedFig I'm not dixiedragon but from the little experience I have with honey, one danger adding it into HP batter before pouring is not being able to mix enough/properly before the whole thing thickens. My first soap with honey has small brown pieces of "crystallized" honey within the soap that I suspect I didn't dilute properly and didn't mix properly.

Hi Dawni (reigning HP Queen)

My liquid to lye is 2:1.

How long do u cure?

 

[Dawni]

Hi Dawni (reigning HP Queen)

My liquid to lye is 2:1.

How long do u cure?

Pfft no queen here lols just happen to know my HP more than my CP lol

Then maybe shunt is right and it's the recipe? I also use 2:1 for most recipes, and I cure for more than 6wks, test bars aside. The bars I'm talking about above were made in September and October if I'm not mistaken. I'm not home so I can't check my notes. For sure though, those used a good percentage of butters, since I couldn't find lard or palm then. Maybe that's one reason?

 

[melinda48]

Gelling can give a more translucent look to the soap (see soaps by @dibbles - some of her soaps are almost ethereal in the way they look!), and are easier to get a shine on the finished soap, with a smoother, sometimes waxier, look to the final soap.

Ungelled soaps are more opaque and pastel hued, with a creamy look to them.

If you want to watch gel in action, pour a small quantity of batter into a ziploc plastic bag and steam it gently ... you can see the change in the batter from creamy looking, to a darker, clear liquid ... it's that dark liquid phase that is the gelling soap. In a slab or log mold, you can sometimes see that dark gel, all the way to the surface of the soap. If the soap gets hot (you can feel it's hot just by holding your hand over the top or to the side), but you aren't seeing the dark all the way to the edge, just a little more insulation is needed next time, to avoid partical gel. Partial gel is a ring in the middle, of gelled soap, where the gel phase hasn't reached all the way to the edges of the soap).

I don't refrigerate my soap, so if I want an ungelled soap in my slab mold, I don't modify the recipe, I modify how I control the temperature in the final soap - if I want it kept cooler, I put it on a cooling rack and get some airflow around it. If the weather is hot, then I sometimes put the soap on ice (literally!) and run a fan over it.

Gelling is easier - if you use a lot of water, the soap will go into gel at a lower temperature. If you use less water, then insulating can retain enough heat to push the soap into gel. If that's not enough, then starting with warmer ingredients and insulating can help.

Gelling after the soap is in the mold can be done in the oven (that is CPOP), by heating the oven to just warm, then turning it off before the soap goes in. The residual heat acts like an electric blanket for soap - it keeps it warm enough to kick the soap over into gelling (and because the heat is both internally generated from the soap's exothermic reaction, and externally applied from the warmth of the oven, the gel can be quite even and complete. Overdoing the oven temperature can lead to rubbery soap

It is easier to stop soap from gelling if it is in smaller molds, and easier to help it gel as the mold gets larger (thermal mass plays a part).

Trivia: The amount of time the soap spends cooling (after gelling) can impact on crackle (or "glycerin rivers") in the soap - a slow cool allows more crackle to develop, and a fast cool "sets" the soap and minimizes crackle (so a CPOP soap left in the oven overnight is far more likely to have crackle than a gelled soap that has had it's insulation removed and been placed, still in the mold, on a cooling rack in front of a fan

How long do you leave it in the oven before setting it out to cool?

 

[hungryhawaiian]

@hungryhawaiian Welcome to the addiction

I would say you have no idea, but you do! I’m sure we all do! Every week I’m buying more and more stuff for soap making (and pen making, but lately mostly soap). I have a niece with eczema and other skin issues. Last night I purchased oatmeal, pine tar and castor oil. I’m probably gonna be doing some experiments this weekend.

The reason for making this post is because I feel that reading, following and creating recipes are simple enough for me to understand, but the aesthetics of the completed soap are far more complex than the recipe itself. I want to have total control in all aspects of my recipes. I want the end product to be exactly what I planned for it to be, from workshop to the shower.

Thank you ALL for the wonderful responses! I read everything but I’m horrible at responding to you individually, I apologize in advance... [emoji267][emoji8]

 

[SaltedFig]

How long do you leave it in the oven before setting it out to cool?

If you are asking about CPOP (Cold Process Oven Process), generally it means leaving the soap overnight in an oven that has been previously warmed on a low setting and turned off before the soap goes in (although there are many variations on temperature and time for CPOP).
I recall when the CPOP technique first came out, people were using the light of the oven to generate the heat - the soap would go in an oven and the light would be left on for constant warmth - with the changes in lighting and oven design, this doesn't always work now, so these days a gently preheated oven and insulated soap is more often recommended
Personally, I tend to insulate and/or use warmed ingredients to ensure gel, rather than use CPOP.
(Advantages: I don't have to move the soap, I've already got it on a level surface and if something goes wrong, it's not in my oven!).

I would say you have no idea, but you do! I’m sure we all do! Every week I’m buying more and more stuff for soap making (and pen making, but lately mostly soap). I have a niece with eczema and other skin issues. Last night I purchased oatmeal, pine tar and castor oil. I’m probably gonna be doing some experiments this weekend.

The reason for making this post is because I feel that reading, following and creating recipes are simple enough for me to understand, but the aesthetics of the completed soap are far more complex than the recipe itself. I want to have total control in all aspects of my recipes. I want the end product to be exactly what I planned for it to be, from workshop to the shower.

Thank you ALL for the wonderful responses! I read everything but I’m horrible at responding to you individually, I apologize in advance... [emoji267][emoji8]

 

[penelopejane]

How long do you leave it in the oven before setting it out to cool?

With CPOP you are not heating the soap.
The soap creates heat on its own as it saponifies.
You are just creating a micro environment around the soap to ensure complete gel happens.
Heat the oven to 110*F (use a thermometer or your hand to test this - it is the temperature of a hot day no more). Turn the oven off. Wrap your soap in a towel (put it in a cardboard box or cover it then wrap it) and leave it in the oven untouched for 12-18 hours. The soap should be cool by the time you take it out. This method requires no peeking because you will change the environment every time you peek.

I did this all the time before I got a mold that didn’t fit in the oven. Now I have a wooden mold with a lid. I put it in a polystyrene box with a lid. In summer I cover the polystyrene box with a doona in winter I use two doonas.

Your climate, your soaping room environment and your recipes might require different tweaks to get the perfect method. If you don’t retain the heat well enough you will get partial gel. If it overheats you will get coarse soap with white, hard edges or cracks.

 

[Cherrydene soapy]

So if I go back to one of the first comments about amount of water used - are you saying the more water you use the easier it is to gel your soap. When using soap calc or the forum calc the water ratio starts at 38% I have been changing it to 30 or 33%. Am I better off leaving it at 38% if I want to gell my soaps??

 

[penelopejane]

So if I go back to one of the first comments about amount of water used - are you saying the more water you use the easier it is to gel your soap. When using soap calc or the forum calc the water ratio starts at 38% I have been changing it to 30 or 33%. Am I better off leaving it at 38% if I want to gell my soaps??

The short answer is no.
You have to define and settle on one of the ratios.
Most people here use "lye concentration" (NOT water as a % of oils) there are good reasons for this go to DeeAnna's site to find out why. Soap calc defaults to water as a % of oils so you will have to click on the button for lye concentration everytime you use soap calc.

26% lye concentration (equivalent to 38% water as a % of oils) has a lot of water in a soap. The soap will likely gel but it might bend as it cures and will take a long time to harden and get out of the mold.

30% lye concentration has less water and it should gel easily. Use this if you are doing a lot of swirls and want a lot of time to play with the batter.

At 33% lye concentration has even less water you soap won't bend as it cures and it will come out of the mold easily, you are unlikely to get ash and it will gel if you insulate it by covering it with a towel or putting it in a turned off oven. This seems to be a happy medium for lye concentration. Once you get quicker at making a soap and better at recognising emulsion you can do good swirls and it will give you enough time to play with the batter.

 

[shunt2011]

So if I go back to one of the first comments about amount of water used - are you saying the more water you use the easier it is to gel your soap. When using soap calc or the forum calc the water ratio starts at 38% I have been changing it to 30 or 33%. Am I better off leaving it at 38% if I want to gell my soaps??

I wouldn’t do full water, more likely to overheat or get glycerin rivers. I would do 29% though of 30 isn’t working. Then jut add a towel or two and you should be good.

 

[Deborah Long]

@SaltedFig and @penelopejane - Thank you ladies so much for your awesome explanations! Copy and paste are my friends, and you two have given me great notes!

Everyone here is so helpful, actually - thank you ALL!

 

[Cherrydene soapy]

I wouldn’t do full water, more likely to overheat or get glycerin rivers. I would do 29% though of 30 isn’t working. Then jut add a towel or two and you should be good.

The short answer is no.
You have to define and settle on one of the ratios.
Most people here use "lye concentration" (NOT water as a % of oils) there are good reasons for this go to DeeAnna's site to find out why. Soap calc defaults to water as a % of oils so you will have to click on the button for lye concentration everytime you use soap calc.

26% lye concentration (equivalent to 38% water as a % of oils) has a lot of water in a soap. The soap will likely gel but it might bend as it cures and will take a long time to harden and get out of the mold.

30% lye concentration has less water and it should gel easily. Use this if you are doing a lot of swirls and want a lot of time to play with the batter.

At 33% lye concentration has even less water you soap won't bend as it cures and it will come out of the mold easily, you are unlikely to get ash and it will gel if you insulate it by covering it with a towel or putting it in a turned off oven. This seems to be a happy medium for lye concentration. Once you get quicker at making a soap and better at recognising emulsion you can do good swirls and it will give you enough time to play with the batter.

thank you great explanation I will try this xx

The short answer is no.
You have to define and settle on one of the ratios.
Most people here use "lye concentration" (NOT water as a % of oils) there are good reasons for this go to DeeAnna's site to find out why. Soap calc defaults to water as a % of oils so you will have to click on the button for lye concentration everytime you use soap calc.

26% lye concentration (equivalent to 38% water as a % of oils) has a lot of water in a soap. The soap will likely gel but it might bend as it cures and will take a long time to harden and get out of the mold.

30% lye concentration has less water and it should gel easily. Use this if you are doing a lot of swirls and want a lot of time to play with the batter.

At 33% lye concentration has even less water you soap won't bend as it cures and it will come out of the mold easily, you are unlikely to get ash and it will gel if you insulate it by covering it with a towel or putting it in a turned off oven. This seems to be a happy medium for lye concentration. Once you get quicker at making a soap and better at recognising emulsion you can do good swirls and it will give you enough time to play with the batter.

Can I put a wooden mould with a silicone liner in the oven? And do I cover it with anything? Xx

 

[penelopejane]

Can I put a wooden mould with a silicone liner in the oven? And do I cover it with anything? Xx

Yes you can. Either cover it with timber or cardboard and wrap in a towel.
Try a standard recipe first then try milks etc. I treat all my soap recipes the same way and none overheat.

The oven only gets to 110*F which is the temp of a hot day. You are not cooking it.
The soap itself will get hotter than that.

 

[Richard Perrine]

My experience with gelling has been mostly aesthetic and accidental. I find that sugars and high temp pouring contributes to gelling. Sugar retains or creates more heat. The outer part of your soap cools quicker, so there is less likelihood of gelling than closer to the core of the soap where much more heat is retained, longer. I stop the gelling all together by soaping at lower temps, not using sugars or placing my individually moulded bars in the freezer/fridge after pouring. If the pour allows for quicker dissipation of heat, less gelling. HP and oven method does help me with complete bars of soap that are gelled. I do believer that gelled soaps, for me, tend to be softer, as someone else mentioned.

 

[Misschief]

Ok, for the sake of clarity, could you please define "full water"? I've always found it a confusing term.

 

[DeeAnna]

interesting.....I always thought it was the other way around

I agree with you -- CP soap that gels is consistently firmer at the time of unmolding compared with CP soap that stays cool enough so it doesn't gel. After cure, CP soap that's ungelled is about as hard as gelled.

When I do HP, the soap is typically softer than when I do CP. This is true even if I use exactly the same recipe with exactly the same amount of water, just use the HP process rather than CP.