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TwystedPryncess

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This Kenna is pretty popular in the soaping world it seems like, and I read her stuff here and there. I was reading over this blog post about labeling mistakes, though, and, well, I was just really confused.

The whole blog post is here:

http://www.modernsoapmaking.com/the-labeling-mistakes-i-always-made-are-you-making-them-too/

Now, I'll clarify some confusion:

<<Labeling Mistake #1: Using an ingredient name in the product name. >>

Um, what? So, does she mean, for example, if I make a deodorant with lavender essential oil in it, I can't name it "Essential Lavender Aluminum-Free Antiperspirant & Deodorant"? (assuming of course that's what it is.)

Or a soap made with Patchouli essential oil named 'Patchouli Prince'? (I'd be more likely to name it 'Patchouli Prynce', or honestly 'Filthy Flower Child' but that's negating my point)

And....why? The following explanation she gives just doesn't cut it for me. And she says 'cosmetic'-- we aren't doing cosmetics...and I bet neither is she. (she shoots herself in the foot later on in the post with that but I will get there). So, I don't understand how and why this would be a mistake. Looking for some help. I'm wanting to make sure I learn to label my stuff correctly--all of it--because I do play around with making all kinds of bath and body stuff.

Labeling Mistake #2: Thinking an ingredient listing is required when it’s not. Or vice versa.

Here, basically she says we, as soap makers, do not even have to list ingredients, that only those who make cosmetics do. But doesn't cosmetic testing as required by the FDA cost arms and legs? Or is this person in a league past us and I'm just missing something?

Labeling Mistake #3: Using the statement “(and)” in an ingredient listing.
The big guys do it so...um...how are we supposed to know the difference? Example: Again--Harry's deodorant (This was my last project, so it most easily comes to mind).

The BB aluminum-free deodorant base ingredient list (edited for brevity and point-getter-atting:)
Cyclomethicone, Phenoxyethanol (and) Caprylyl Glycol

The Phenoxyethanol (and) Caprylyl Glycol are pretty much Optiphen, but again, how do *I* know which of what is more, according to her, is proper, but if it contains both, shouldn't we include both? But according to her, we don't really need to include anything after all? :crazy:

Labeling Mistake #4: Using the incorrect type size or measuring it incorrectly.

important to consult the regulations to find out if you are in compliance.

Where are these regulations? What if you have a unique size label? I've seen labels on stuff in Walmart with print so small even ant would look like a giant next to it so...I don't get what she is referring to. Are the big guys exempt from something we are not? Or is this again just cosmetics rules that we don't have to follow?

Labeling Mistake #5: Forgetting to bold the net weight or placing it in the wrong area.

I have always seen it in the bottom third, but NOT always bold. I'm curious as to where that rule is found. I've never heard of it before now, only that Net Wt. and grams need to be there. But I am learning.

Ok, finally:

There is a comment below the post where someone asks:

Hi there, thanks for sharing. If labeling as a cosmetic, doesn’t that require you to get FDA approval and\or open you up to inspections, etc?

And the answer she gives is:

No, cosmetics do not currently need approval. You *should* be following GMP, but they are not required by law and yes, you *could* have an FDA rep wanting to inspect your facility. As it stands right now, the FDA is highly understaffed for the amount of regulatory action necessary to fully enforce the regulations – which is hugely unfortunate, IMO.

No, cosmetics do not currently need approval.
What??

Any enlighteners, feel free. The best I can come up with is that she simply is posting as if she labels her stuff as cosmetics, and not just plain cleaning soaps, like we do, because she feels that she does not have to do the testing fees to claim 'moisturizes, heals this, does that, etc.'. Is she correct in that vein? I've always read/heard/been taught different.

</end confusion>
 

kchaystack

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Soap, as long as you make no claims that is does anything but clean, does not need to be labled.

Once you say it is moisturizing or soothing or whatever, it becomes a cosmetic, and then had to have ingredients listed, weight, and company contact info. But there is no testing required. The only thing that required testing are drugs (so if you say your soap treats eczema).
 

lionprincess00

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Any enlighteners, feel free. The best I can come up with is that she simply is posting as if she labels her stuff as cosmetics, and not just plain cleaning soaps, like we do, because she feels that she does not have to do the testing fees to claim 'moisturizes, heals this, does that, etc.'. Is she correct in that vein? I've always read/heard/been taught different.

</end confusion>
Moisturizing is a cosmetic claim. No testing needed. Only need is to list the proper ingredients, in descending order, by their inci name. Proper weight needed as well. Cosmetics needs no tests and needs no fda oversight per the claims. Proper label requirements are a must, though, and as such the can shut you down if you're making cosmetic claims and not labeling for cosmetics. Again, no oversight is required.

What you threw in there, though, were drug claims when you used the words healed. That and other drug claims are monitored, regulated, and needs approval after testing and inspection per the fda. That is a whole other ball game soapers do not have any hand in (mostly speaking).

Soap doesn't need as rigorous labeling with inci names in proper order as cosmetics, but most soapers like to say "moisturizing, nourishing etc etc" so they must label cosmetic. Soap labels need "soap", weight, and business name (i believe that's it for the actual physical label). Of course that's a "soap label" if all you're putting on that label is
Lavender
Soap
Weight xx oz.

Cosmetics would be
Lavender moisturizing facial wash
Weight xx oz
Sodium tallowate, sodium cocoate, etc etc...

Drugs, however, entirely different. No heals, no helps this or that condition etc etc without proper fda oversight.
 
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new12soap

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Cosmetics labels do not require INCI ingredient names.

Start here http://www.fda.gov/Cosmetics/Labeling/Regulations/ucm126438.htm and click around the site, you will find how they define soap, cosmetics, and drugs, and links to the requirements for all of them.

I have not read the blog you are referencing, but the good news/bad news about the internet is that there is a lot of conflicting or just plain bad info out there. Best to go directly to the source.
 

TeresaT

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Cosmetics labels do not require INCI ingredient names.

Start here http://www.fda.gov/Cosmetics/Labeling/Regulations/ucm126438.htm and click around the site, you will find how they define soap, cosmetics, and drugs, and links to the requirements for all of them.

I have not read the blog you are referencing, but the good news/bad news about the internet is that there is a lot of conflicting or just plain bad info out there. Best to go directly to the source.
I have this website saved on my iPhone home screen for a little light reading while waiting in lines at the grocery store or in traffic jams. I also have the S.1014 printed and carry with me for reference. I'll be talking with my Senator regarding that little piece of legislation. So far it doesn't really affect small home based soapers, but if they start screwing with it, it may.
 

hmlove1218

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This Kenna is pretty popular in the soaping world it seems like, and I read her stuff here and there. I was reading over this blog post about labeling mistakes, though, and, well, I was just really confused.

The whole blog post is here:

http://www.modernsoapmaking.com/the-labeling-mistakes-i-always-made-are-you-making-them-too/

Now, I'll clarify some confusion:

<<Labeling Mistake #1: Using an ingredient name in the product name. >>

Um, what? So, does she mean, for example, if I make a deodorant with lavender essential oil in it, I can't name it "Essential Lavender Aluminum-Free Antiperspirant & Deodorant"? (assuming of course that's what it is.)

Or a soap made with Patchouli essential oil named 'Patchouli Prince'? (I'd be more likely to name it 'Patchouli Prynce', or honestly 'Filthy Flower Child' but that's negating my point)

And....why? The following explanation she gives just doesn't cut it for me. And she says 'cosmetic'-- we aren't doing cosmetics...and I bet neither is she. (she shoots herself in the foot later on in the post with that but I will get there). So, I don't understand how and why this would be a mistake. Looking for some help. I'm wanting to make sure I learn to label my stuff correctly--all of it--because I do play around with making all kinds of bath and body stuff.

Labeling Mistake #2: Thinking an ingredient listing is required when it’s not. Or vice versa.

Here, basically she says we, as soap makers, do not even have to list ingredients, that only those who make cosmetics do. But doesn't cosmetic testing as required by the FDA cost arms and legs? Or is this person in a league past us and I'm just missing something?

Labeling Mistake #3: Using the statement “(and)” in an ingredient listing.
The big guys do it so...um...how are we supposed to know the difference? Example: Again--Harry's deodorant (This was my last project, so it most easily comes to mind).

The BB aluminum-free deodorant base ingredient list (edited for brevity and point-getter-atting:)
Cyclomethicone, Phenoxyethanol (and) Caprylyl Glycol

The Phenoxyethanol (and) Caprylyl Glycol are pretty much Optiphen, but again, how do *I* know which of what is more, according to her, is proper, but if it contains both, shouldn't we include both? But according to her, we don't really need to include anything after all? :crazy:

Labeling Mistake #4: Using the incorrect type size or measuring it incorrectly.

important to consult the regulations to find out if you are in compliance.

Where are these regulations? What if you have a unique size label? I've seen labels on stuff in Walmart with print so small even ant would look like a giant next to it so...I don't get what she is referring to. Are the big guys exempt from something we are not? Or is this again just cosmetics rules that we don't have to follow?

Labeling Mistake #5: Forgetting to bold the net weight or placing it in the wrong area.

I have always seen it in the bottom third, but NOT always bold. I'm curious as to where that rule is found. I've never heard of it before now, only that Net Wt. and grams need to be there. But I am learning.

Ok, finally:

There is a comment below the post where someone asks:

Hi there, thanks for sharing. If labeling as a cosmetic, doesn’t that require you to get FDA approval and\or open you up to inspections, etc?

And the answer she gives is:

No, cosmetics do not currently need approval. You *should* be following GMP, but they are not required by law and yes, you *could* have an FDA rep wanting to inspect your facility. As it stands right now, the FDA is highly understaffed for the amount of regulatory action necessary to fully enforce the regulations – which is hugely unfortunate, IMO.

No, cosmetics do not currently need approval.
What??

Any enlighteners, feel free. The best I can come up with is that she simply is posting as if she labels her stuff as cosmetics, and not just plain cleaning soaps, like we do, because she feels that she does not have to do the testing fees to claim 'moisturizes, heals this, does that, etc.'. Is she correct in that vein? I've always read/heard/been taught different.

</end confusion>
I'm warning ya, this will be pretty lengthy.

#1 Just because the "big boy" companies do it DOES NOT mean that they are right.

#2 If you're in the US, cosmetics are supposed to be labeled with the common names, NOT INCI.

Pause here, go online, and order Marie Gail's Book "Soap and Cosmetic Labeling". Seriously, do it now. She turned all the legal mumbo-jumbo from the FDA site into normal English lol.

<<Labeling Mistake #1: Using an ingredient name in the product name. >>

This is referring to a situation like this. You make a soap with shea butter in it and you market it as "shea butter soap". THAT'S WRONG! You should actually be marketing it as "soap with shea butter". Why? Because your soap is not made of 100% shea butter.

Labeling Mistake #2: Thinking an ingredient listing is required when it’s not. Or vice versa.

No, soap does not require an ingredient list. Soap only requires the net weight, the declaration of "soap", and the manufacturing address - no PO boxes.

Labeling Mistake #3: Using the statement “(and)” in an ingredient listing.

Yes, the inclusion of (and) is actually incorrect. You should be labeling ingredients in decending order and this includes the components of the individual ingredients.

Labeling Mistake #4: Using the incorrect type size or measuring it incorrectly.

Yes, there is actually a defined minimum type size for labels. The requirements are on the FDA website.

Labeling Mistake #5: Forgetting to bold the net weight or placing it in the wrong area.

I haven't heard that you need to bold the net weight, but it is supposed to be at the bottom of the label.

No, cosmetics do not currently need approval.
What??


No, cosmetic formulations are not required to be tested in the US. You can make lotion/makeup/whatever in the US and sell without ever having your formula tested. Other countries have different regulations.

Yes, selling cosmetics opens you up to possibly having the FDA inspect your location, but honestly you have like a 1 in 100 million chance of that haopening. When was the last time you heard of a small, home operated cosmetic business being inspected?

If you haven't already, seriously go buy Marie Gail's book. She goes into much more detail about all this and explains it way better.
 

lionprincess00

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Cosmetics labels do not require INCI ingredient names.

Start here http://www.fda.gov/Cosmetics/Labeling/Regulations/ucm126438.htm and click around the site, you will find how they define soap, cosmetics, and drugs, and links to the requirements for all of them.

I have not read the blog you are referencing, but the good news/bad news about the internet is that there is a lot of conflicting or just plain bad info out there. Best to go directly to the source.
Hmm. Stand corrected. I swear I read that here several times...must've been wrong or I misread.http://www.mariegale.com/soap-and-cosmetic-labeling/labeling-faq.html, seems fda requires in fact common names?? I guess soapers recommend to us newbies inci names for the comfort of buyers because most people I assume are familiar with store bought having inci names. Maybe that's where my confusion originated?
 

hmlove1218

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Hmm. Stand corrected. I swear I read that here several times...must've been wrong or I misread.http://www.mariegale.com/soap-and-cosmetic-labeling/labeling-faq.html, seems fda requires in fact common names?? I guess soapers recommend to us newbies inci names for the comfort of buyers because most people I assume are familiar with store bought having inci names. Maybe that's where my confusion originated?
You have to remember that this is an international forum. Different countries have different regulations. Many require INCI labeling
 

lionprincess00

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What I vaguely remembered was specific to fda regulations. Your point is an excellent one, however, on that this is an international forum with many following different rules. I've seen many a confusion on this exact thing (different regulations being discussed).
 

pamielynn

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And yes, you're NOT supposed to call products by an ingredient name unless that ingredient makes up 100% of the product. This is the stupidest one. You can't call a soap "Lavender Soap" or a shampoo "Rosemary Shampoo" because the lavender and and rosemary don't make up 100% of the product. It would need to be labeled as "Lavender SCENTED soap", etc. How any human being would be misled by "Rosemary Shampoo", I have no idea.

I'm in the process of changing a few of my labels now. I don't believe that "Patchouli Prince" would be wrong. I have a soap called "Python", but since there are NO pythons in it at all, I think that name is safe. Maybe soon it will be considered misleading, but I'm hanging on to it for now. ;)
 

new12soap

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Yes, it can be very confusing indeed! I have seen several sources saying INCI name is required, and other that say it is not. Again, when possible, I always recommend going to the source.

hmlove thank you for bringing up the point that this forum is an international one and yes the regs will be different from country to country.

And pamielynn, I have never seen a source restricting the name of the soap? Can you post a link to the reg?
 

not_ally

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I just glanced at Kenna's post, but I think she is actually right about everything, although the text may be too abbreviated to be really clear. I also second (third?) the suggestion to get Marie Gale's book, it is the best guide around w/r/t to explaining all those very unclear FDA regs in plain English. I think it is indispensible to anyone who is labeling soaps/cosmetics for sale.
 

TwystedPryncess

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I will definitely grab that book! Thanks for all the tips. I label mine with both INCI and common name on the ingredients section currently, as I was under the impression we were required to label INCI but figured people would want common names. I can understand the point of not wanting products labeled as if one ingredient were basically the whole product. I was looking more at my example I gave... Something more of just a light adjective saying it has the ingredient in it. Either way I am sure the resources pointed out will help greatly. I produce mine as just plain cleaning soap, but all of it is good to know.
 

soapmage

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Yep she's actually correct but may not have stated it as clearly as it could have been. This has been a thorn in my side for months and I had to actually go and re-design ALL of my labels which was a huge pain! I have a soap that I originally called Lovely Lavender and now the label still says that but I had to add the word Scented, smh... sometimes all this hullabaloo makes me wish I didn't sell. It's enough to make one's head spin!
 

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