Testing Vinegar/Sodium Acetate In Soap - Phase II

[LisaAnne]

Heh, call me anything except Murray.

Sorry to take so long. That's a very good question.

The numbers you circled are based on ratios of molecular weights. Some molecules are small and simple and don't weigh much, while others are composed of a lot of atoms and can weigh much more. These are the molecular weights of the 4 molecules involved in this chemical reaction:

acetic acid 60
sodium acetate 82
sodium hydroxide 40
water 18

The chemical reaction is:

1 acetic acid + 1 sodium hydroxide ---> 1 sodium acetate + 1 water

1 molecule acetic acid weighing 60 and 1 molecule sodium hydroxide weighing 40 yield 1 molecule sodium acetate weighing 82 and 1 molecule of water weighing 18. The total weight is the same on both sides because stuff can't just disappear or come out of thin air.

60 + 40 = 100 ---> 82 + 18 = 100

This ratio of weights holds at any level. 60 tons acetic acid reacted with 40 tons NaOH yields 82 tons sodium acetate and 18 tons of water. Or ounces or grams or pounds or milligrams. The units don't matter, just the relative weights.

So what is the relative weight of acetic acid to sodium acetate in this reaction? It's 60/82 = .73. To make 82 grams (or any other amount) of sodium acetate, we multiply it by .73, which is 60 grams acetic acid. To make 10 grams sodium acetate, multiply by .73 and you need 7.3 grams acetic acid.

We will be needing sodium hydroxide too, which is the same thing except 40 per 82, which is 40/82 = .49.

TOMH <-

Thank you! You explained that perfectly, I will have to read it a couple of more times to bring it all together, but now it makes sense to me. Your complete and detailed answer is appreciated. I'm like Teresa I have to know why before I get it.

 

[LisaAnne]

OH MY GOSH! I am stealing this. I've already copied the photo (and I'll turn it right side up), NOW it actually makes sense to me. (OK. MORE sense that before, I'm not 100% there.) I need to take your ciphering and actually write it down myself and think of my recipe and my ACV and my kitchen and then I'll totally understand it. (I'm a really weird learner. I like steps: step 1, turn on computer, step 2....) Anyway, LisaAnne, thank you so much for your post. And TOMH - thank you for your generosity and patience.

yes Teresa! I have to write it down and look at it just like you do, I even had my vinegar bottle on the table as a visual aid. That is how we Adders learn! (I didn't get the H in ADHD, just the ADD inattentive, blah blah!)

And yes TOMH is very patient and generous with those of us that take a little longer.

 

[TeresaT]

TOMH: I'll send it next week. Gotta get more bubble wrap. BTW: LisaAnne has more patience with sitting down to figure out the hard stuff and turn your instructions into something easy. All I saw was "blah blah blah blah .49 blah blah blah has the water blah blah..." She didn't get the "H" and that makes all the difference in the world. LOL!

 

[TeresaT]

yes Teresa! I have to write it down and look at it just like you do, I even had my vinegar bottle on the table as a visual aid. That is how we Adders learn! (I didn't get the H in ADHD, just the ADD inattentive, blah blah!)

And yes TOMH is very patient and generous with those of us that take a little longer.

That is hilarious!! I actually planned on doing that! You are so right about the "Adders" way of learning. The more "visual" I can get (the more tactile as well) the better off I am.

ETA: I did it. I can't believe I actually did it. (And I have a headache, too. I think it's because I need to eat, but I'm blaming it on the math.) I need to use 69 gm NaOH, 50 gm H20 and 87 gm ACV for my 500 gm oils to have an 8% SF and 2% SA. (You will notice that even with your excellent cheat sheet, I still made mistakes and multiplied where I should have divided and divided where I should have multiplied.)

 

[topofmurrayhill]

ETA: I did it. I can't believe I actually did it. (And I have a headache, too. I think it's because I need to eat, but I'm blaming it on the math.)

Good work.

 

[LisaAnne]

That is hilarious!! I actually planned on doing that! You are so right about the "Adders" way of learning. The more "visual" I can get (the more textual as well) the better off I am.

ETA: I did it. I can't believe I actually did it. (And I have a headache, too. I think it's because I need to eat, but I'm blaming it on the math.) I need to use 69 gm NaOH, 50 gm H20 and 87 gm ACV for my 500 gm oils to have an 8% SF and 2% SA. (You will notice that even with your excellent cheat sheet, I still made mistakes and multiplied where I should have divided and divided where I should have multiplied.)

Woo hoo! And pretty paper!

 

[nikkisessence]

I get decently hard bars of all oil soaps with reducing water to 50:50 w:w in lye solution. You shouldn't need salt in bars but wait two days to unmold. Sodium increases the affinity of the soap molecules for each other. Sodium salts harder than potassium salt, adding salt to the reaction makes a harder bar. I use sugar at half of lye by weight to increase mycelle formation. *edit*micelle. I type fast and get excited. I like this discussion - please I hope I'm not an intrusion. I've not tested sodium acetate and that sounds interesting. Oils I have tested alone are peanut, soy, Olive, and Safflower. The Safflower was by far hardest and least resistant to rancidity. My next experent was to test potassium metabisulfite against rancidity and vanilla discoloration. I will look forward to more discussion here!

 

[LisaAnne]

That is quite a bit more sugar than I use. I will try using more, thanks. I'm slowly lowering my liquids and it is making a difference.

 

[LisaAnne]

I get decently hard bars of all oil soaps with reducing water to 50:50 w:w in lye solution. You shouldn't need salt in bars but wait two days to unmold. Sodium increases the affinity of the soap molecules for each other. Sodium salts harder than potassium salt, adding salt to the reaction makes a harder bar. I use sugar at half of lye by weight to increase mycelle formation. *edit*micelle. I type fast and get excited. I like this discussion - please I hope I'm not an intrusion. I've not tested sodium acetate and that sounds interesting. Oils I have tested alone are peanut, soy, Olive, and Safflower. The Safflower was by far hardest and least resistant to rancidity. My next experent was to test potassium metabisulfite against rancidity and vanilla discoloration. I will look forward to more discussion here!

I was looking up micelle formation and found some very interesting information. I have never heard that term. Thanks

 

[nikkisessence]

The use of sugars in soaps improves lather most likely because it stabilizes the formations of micelles. This is partly why additives like honey and milks improve soaps.

 

[topofmurrayhill]

The use of sugars in soaps improves lather most likely because it stabilizes the formations of micelles. This is partly why additives like honey and milks improve soaps.

My theory is that it solubilizes the soap somewhat, like castor oil. Sugar is commonly used as a solvent for making transparent soap. It makes the soap crystals smaller. With the amount of sugar you use, adding some glycerin as well would make your soap come out translucent. You would not see through it but you would certainly see light shining through.

Unfortunately it would also be pretty rubbery.

 

[nikkisessence]

My theory is that it solubilizes the soap somewhat, like castor oil. Sugar is commonly used as a solvent for making transparent soap. It makes the soap crystals smaller. With the amount of sugar you use, adding some glycerin as well would make your soap come out translucent. You would not see through it but you would certainly see light shining through.

Unfortunately it would also be pretty rubbery.

Yes, that is what I have found. I can stretch the soap to make roses that I glue together with soap that I have reheated.

 

[nikkisessence]

Is this pertinent to this discussion?

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=52250

 

[topofmurrayhill]

Is this pertinent to this discussion?

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=52250

It could be pertinent, but I wouldn't be too quick to conclude that. It was noted 100 years ago that sodium acetate and sodium lactate have very similar effects, which so far seems to be true. Sodium chloride, while also considered a hardener, seems to have some different effects. Another thing that could be as pertinent or even more so is similarities between corresponding sodium and potassium compounds, those being the two alkali metals common in soapmaking. For instance, sodium lactate and potassium lactate seem to have similar properties.

 

[nikkisessence]

I'm probably way out of my league discussing this. My background is in the biological sciences (and even then more into bioinformatics). So, my Chemistry is probably not up to snuff. I do remember potassium and sodium as alkali metals, with sodium being the lighter. Acetate and lactate are both involved as precursors/important players for tca and other biochemical pathways. Perhaps acetate and lactate have some other polymerization going along side the soap polymer reaction? As table salt added would lend the sodium to reinforce the soap bond but leave excess chloride?