Testing a few soft oils in 40%

Discussion in 'Lye-Based Soap Forum' started by ngian, Oct 5, 2015.

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  1. Jan 13, 2016 #21

    dibbles

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    This has been a very interesting experiment to follow. Thank you for posting your learnings.
     
  2. Jan 14, 2016 #22

    snappyllama

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    Love the video showing all the lathering. Thanks for posting the experiment and your results!
     
  3. Jan 15, 2016 #23

    HoneyLady

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    Very interesting! Thanks for sharing your work.

    Let me point out a few things for some folks who may or may not have caught some of the subtleties here.

    What ngian is calling "canola" oil IS NOT what soapers in the US and Canada know as Canola oil.

    That brand pictured actually says "Rapeseed oil" Rapeseed (from the Latin, rapum, meaning "turnip". Rapeseed is an oil-bearing seed plant from the brassica family and is related to mustards, cabbages, turnips, etc. It has been used for thousands of years.

    Canola was bred in Canada from Rapeseed during WWII when many oils and lubricants were in short supply. Canola used to be a registered trademark name (like Kleenex for facial tissue) that came to be substituted for the real name. It means, as I recall, CANadian OiL Association, or some such.

    Canola *IS* a GMO. However, it does qualify as one of the few "good" GMOs in my opinion. It isn't as hyper modified as soybeans or corn. And the plants, while GMO, are still valuable AND safe for bees and other pollinators. The current form of Canola that is the most widely grown was created in 1998, and that's ancient history in the GMO world. Of course, bee friendly is *MY* bandwagon and soapbox.

    Rapeseed oil and canola are NOT the same. Rapeseed oil is available in some health food markets, but it is no longer grown in the quantities that canola is, and is more expensive, and harder to find. (At least in the US)

    I use canola oil in some recipes and find it to be a cheap, easy, filler that adds some conditioning. It is also prone to DOS, and if I use it, I always add vitamin E.

    If you are interested in trying ngian's ideas (and I have a list started myself) I wanted everyone to be aware that what s/he (sorry, I'm not sure which!) is using is not what we have available, and therefore, your results will vary.

    Now wondering where I can find rapeseed oil . . . :mrgreen:

    ~HoneyLady~
     
  4. Jan 16, 2016 #24

    Soapmaker145

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    Interesting test ngian. FWIW, I can detect a different feel for soaps that have avocado/macademia nut oils and canola. I avoided canola for over a decade. Now I try to add it to every soap I make. It gives the soaps a feel similar to adding buttermilk or silk without the added stuff. My oldest canola soap batch is about a year and a half old. It keeps on getting better. The rest of the oils run together since I use about a 50:50 mix of sat to unsat. oils in all my soaps.

    Canola is not a GMO. There are some GMO canola seeds but there are also organic non-GMO canola seeds. Canadian farmers worked hard to keep some of the canola non-GMO. Soaper's choice carries the non-GMO oil.

    The canola seed is a rapeseed that was bred or selected for specific characteristics just like most of the vegetable seeds we use including heirlooms. The original rapeseed contains a lot of a long chain fatty acid that is toxic if ingested in sufficient amounts. The selection process reduced it to acceptable levels.

    There are regulation about the amounts of the toxic fatty acid that can be present in rapeseed in the US and in the EU. They are in the low single digits. If we use the non GMO canola in the US, it would be very similar to the rapeseed oil available in Europe.
     
  5. Jan 16, 2016 #25

    penelopejane

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    great experiment.

    Maybe if you tried it without all the additives you mentioned you used you would be able to detect the subtle different feel of each of the oils. Even though you did this to each batch I think it would have significantly changed the qualities of each oil.

    I have been surprised that I can do so in smaller quantities than 40%. I can definitely also feel the difference in my skin after I've used a soap with different oils in the shower (not just hand washing).

    You said to each batch you added:
    <along with salt, sugar, trisodium citrate, silk fibers, oatmeal floor and lemon FO.>
     
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  6. Jan 18, 2016 #26

    ngian

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    Thank you all for your input concerning the canola vs rapeseed oil.

    I have also send these soaps to other soapers and one of them also said that she did find the avocado to be the most conditioning (she didn't feel the need to apply any handcream afterwards) one among all others while another one said that she didn't find any major differences, just like me. So I guess it is on the skin type also and if that is able to grab any characteristics the soaps have.

    I'm also trying to find out if there is any unsaponified matter in the refined avocado oil and at which amount. Some sites are mentioning that it has high amount others are saying that it is high just like olive oil! but olive oil has a max of 1.5% of unsaponifiables. The store I bought the specific avocado oil only has an MSDS file that says nothing about its chemical composition.

    Penelopejane I used these soft oils in a recipe that has many oils and additives because I wanted to test them in a recipe I use more often.

    I'm a "he" named Nikos ;)
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2016
  7. Jan 20, 2016 #27

    BrewerGeorge

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    One question I'm unclear on. (Apologies if the answer is in the video, since I can't watch it...)

    Are you washing with all soaps every day, one right after the other? If so, it would seem that the differences might be blurred together because the end result would be that of the most stripping soap, to use DeeAnna's words. A more exaggerated example would be to wash with a 100% olive oil soap, then immediately follow with a 100% coconut oil soap - the feel would be the super dry result of the coconut.
     
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  8. Jan 20, 2016 #28

    ngian

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    You are correct George about using one soap right after the other. I once did that on my hair with these 6 soaps and I felt that my hair had run out of my head with the 25% of Myristic & Lauric acids each soap has.

    After a few days I started using one soap once per day on my hair and body and found out that my skin didn't feel different during the day for 6 days using different soap each day (I'm taking a bath every morning before I leave for work).
     
  9. Jan 20, 2016 #29

    BrewerGeorge

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    Glad I asked, thanks.
     
  10. Mar 7, 2016 #30

    ngian

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    I guess this experiment will end with one more soft oil, and that is Macadamia nut oil.

    [​IMG]

    I'm using this oil because it has the heightest amount of palmitoleic fatty acid (C 16:1) in its profile (20%), while avocado oil has around 9% of it and soapcalc doesn't account for that to the characteristics of the soap. Also some people say that they can feel the difference AO brings to the soap and maybe palmitoleic is responsible for that. Hoping to find any treasure in the dark side of the... soap.

    [​IMG]

    It is the same recipe as the one stated in the first post of this thread apart from the main oil at 40%. I also used 10 drops of red pigment in the oils, giving that pink color.

    [​IMG]

    The only unexpected thing I had in the procedure was that just after the gel phase with the CPOP method I always do, I left the mold outside the house all night instead of leaving it in room temperature and after testing the loaf for hardness after 9 hours that I always did with all the previous soaps of the experiment, this one was very soft to cut. It had a very soft surface, and leaving it for 12 hours total the loaf was still soft.

    So I thought that I could warm it up in the oven once again to somehow speed things up. After put it in the oven @~65°C for a few minutes and leaving it out in room temperature the loaf seemed to gain hardness more quickly. I then put it once again in the oven and it for sure did speed things up. So after 24 hours from the initial gel phase, the loaf was so rock hard that I had to once again put it in the oven so as to be cut smoothly.

    [​IMG]


    So after two months I will be able to test if palmitoleic acid is something worthy and also to see if my skin can feel anything more than the other soaps of the test.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2016
  11. Mar 10, 2016 #31

    Spice

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    [​IMG]



    [​IMG]

    It is the same recipe as the one stated in the first post of this thread apart from the main oil at 40%. I also used 10 drops of red pigment in the oils, giving that pink color.

    [​IMG]

    Your soap looks really good, did you CPOP, all of the soaps?
     
  12. Mar 10, 2016 #32

    DeeAnna

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    Thoughtful work, Nikos. I'm enjoying this!
     
  13. Mar 10, 2016 #33

    lenarenee

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    Thanks for sharing all of your work Nikos - you've done a very valuable test.

    Your macadamia soap is beautiful! And I don't like pink.

    Isn't macadamia oil very yellow? Did it affect the color of the soap?
     
  14. Mar 11, 2016 #34

    ngian

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    Yes I always CPOP all my soaps to ensure gel phase.

    Not really, I wouldn't call it a yellow oil. Rapeseed / Canola oil is for sure yellow, but not macadamia.

    After one week of curing, the bars are getting really hard and it reminds me of recipes with 50% lard. Maybe it is the total 8% palmitoleic acid (40% in the recipe out of 20% in macadamia) which might acts something between oleic and palmitic acids that contributes to this hardening, or maybe the heating procedure I did a few hours after the gel phase helped also.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2016
  15. May 20, 2016 #35

    ngian

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    Well over two months of curing has passed and I have tried the macadamia soap bar. My skin senses have captured a more silky and maybe easier bubbly properties on this soap compared side by side with the already 7 months-old avocado oil soap. The same opinion has another soaper that I gave her these two soaps.

    So I guess that the palmitoleic acid (C16:1) is an acid that contributes in hardening (as the soap bar by its first week of curing was satisfactorily getting hard), and also gives a better palmitic (C16:0) kind of lather maybe because of the one double bond it has. I'm wondering if the 5 months age difference might also do something that makes them different.

    The FA profile of the macadamia soap [Macadamia: 40%, Lard: 30%, Coconut Oil: 15%, Palm Kernel Oil: 10%, Castor Oil: 5%] is:

    Lauric 10
    Myristic 4
    Palmitic 14
    Palmitoleic 8
    Stearic 6
    Ricinoleic 9
    Oleic 40
    Linoleic 3
    Linolenic 0

    Iodine 55 (41-70)

    where I would add palmitoleic to the plamitic family but with the tendency to be somehow more water soluble.

    It is an expensive oil and I don't think I'm going to buy any other when the remaining oil will end. I can make with it one more soap with 60-70% of it and I think it will be a great one...
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2016
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  16. May 20, 2016 #36

    penelopejane

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    Thanks for this. Macadamia nut oil isn't too expensive here.
    Can you compare it to your RB or OO mixes for me please?
     
  17. May 20, 2016 #37

    ngian

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    Well here I can find Macadamia oil for 18E/litre.

    Rice Bran Oil is not in my experiment and olive oil, as I have written in older posts on this thread, seems to be a second or less late on giving the bubbles other oils like Canola, Sweet Almond and Sunflower HO are giving. Otherwise all the previous oils for me are the same on the feeling of their lather.

    One soaper (and many here) found Avocado oil to give something special to the feeling during washing, which I couldn't feel it, but macadamia has something also which is obvious enough to me too...
     
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  18. Jan 30, 2019 #38

    Kburdette

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    I have a question about the trisodium citrate. Why do you use it instead of sodium citrate? Does it help better than the sodium citrate with hard water?
     
  19. Jan 30, 2019 #39

    ngian

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    Hello Kburdette
    I don't know if there is any significant difference between trisodium/disodium citrate as it concerns how it affects soap, but trisodium citrate is what the soap supplies shop had to give me by that time.

    Maybe someone with more chem knowledge can help us on your question.

    Nikos
     
  20. Jan 30, 2019 #40

    penelopejane

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