Syndet shampoo bar recipe help needed
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I do not like the syndet bar from Susan. My experience with it is it gets very mushy after one use. The basics of it are okay but it takes some experimentation to get it to hold up.
Dahila
Well-Known Member
too much liquid , I make my own, I tried like 4 from her books and all soft to the very end you could squeeze it like a ball . 30% of Slsa is just too much for me
Sighhhh, having read the forums everyone seems to have liked Susan. So back to square one then. Maybe I will try Humblebee instead, but from what I can see she hasn’t developed anything for dry hair.
Obsidian
Well-Known Member
Here is a recipe I use on my hair. Most of the time I don't have to use a conditioner, at least I didn't until I bleached my hair a few months back.
Even with it being bleached and damaged, this bar isn't as harsh as commercial shampoo.
They can get a little soft after a couple weeks if not able to dry really well between uses but it didn't become squishy.
Heated powder ingredients- add colorant here if using, micas work great.
SCI 32%
cetyl alcohol 5%
BTMS25 7%
Incroquat CR 5%
Shea butter (any butter will work) 5%
SLSa 28%
Liquid heated ingredients (mix with powders)
Disodium Cocoamphodiacetate 6%
Cocamidopropyl Betaine 6%
Cool down phase
Silk amino acids 1%
Panthenol 1%
Dimethicone 1%
Cyclomethicone 1%
CTAC 1%
Preservative 1%
Fragrance 1-3%
melt heated phase at 30 second bursts in microwave. Make sure not to burn or overheat, it will puff up and come out of your bowl if you do. Will resemble applesauce when melted.
Cool down to the appropriate temps for your preservative. Add preservative, additives and fragrance, mix well and quickly pour into molds.
Even with it being bleached and damaged, this bar isn't as harsh as commercial shampoo.
They can get a little soft after a couple weeks if not able to dry really well between uses but it didn't become squishy.
Heated powder ingredients- add colorant here if using, micas work great.
SCI 32%
cetyl alcohol 5%
BTMS25 7%
Incroquat CR 5%
Shea butter (any butter will work) 5%
SLSa 28%
Liquid heated ingredients (mix with powders)
Disodium Cocoamphodiacetate 6%
Cocamidopropyl Betaine 6%
Cool down phase
Silk amino acids 1%
Panthenol 1%
Dimethicone 1%
Cyclomethicone 1%
CTAC 1%
Preservative 1%
Fragrance 1-3%
melt heated phase at 30 second bursts in microwave. Make sure not to burn or overheat, it will puff up and come out of your bowl if you do. Will resemble applesauce when melted.
Cool down to the appropriate temps for your preservative. Add preservative, additives and fragrance, mix well and quickly pour into molds.
unfortunately i am not good at experimenting. I can follow a recipe and make stuff but chemistry was not my strong suit. Making soap I can do lol
I see you added more SCI which is ok because it is gentle. I saw cetyl alcohol in Susans recipe but wasn’t sure what it brought to the bar...
My recipe had BTMS-50 is there a difference between 50 and btms-25? And why do you have incroquat and btms separately when I have incroquat btms?
can I use oat protein in place of silk amino acids or do you prefer the silk?
Do you not use sodium lactaid? It is my understanding that it helps harden the bar.
Wow it seems I have fallen down a never ending hole with this project. Its more complicated than I thought.
Oh how rude of me...thanks so much for your help Obsidian. I am trying to get rid of as much plastic as I can and that’s why I am trying to make my own shampoo bars.
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Obsidian
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately, I can't answer your questions about different ingredients. This recipe was given to me, I'm not good at formulating things like this myself.
I do think replace silk with the oat protein should be fine.
I was told what to add to try and harden the bar but I forgot what it was.
I do think replace silk with the oat protein should be fine.
I was told what to add to try and harden the bar but I forgot what it was.
Dahila
Well-Known Member
I started with Susan one , but made probably like 50 small batches , each time changing a bit, Now I have very stable formula, which I use to press. Mine is kind of similar to Obsidian. You can use any protein you like. I use Keratin and silk because of tiny molecules,
Cetyl alcohol can be incorporated into a recipe to increase the hardness and it can also give oil free moisturization. BTMS 50 is better than BTMS 25 because it has more active ingredients plus a humectant. To save money, you can sub equal parts BTMS 25 and Incroquat CR for the BTMS 50. I know that sodium lactate is suggested to make the bar harder in Susan's recipes but I have not found that to be the case with my bars. Sodium lactate is a humectant which means it draws water from the air. Last thing I want to do is draw water to my shampoo bar when not in use.
I also have wondered about the use of sodium lactate -- Susan says it's a required ingredient. Having tried it, my opinion is different. The SL causes the product to get a lot softer in humid weather. If it works well for her and other people, that's all good, but I'm getting better results without it.
I'm so glad I checked in this morning, I lurk alot, but very seldom comment. I have been making shampoo bars for awhile and want to change to syndet bars, this will be so helpful. I've also experienced a problem with my HP soap lately that has been driving me nuts. My soap has been sweating and it has ruined a few batches. I have gone through my oils etc and couldn't figure out what was going on. Thanks to this post I believe it's the addition of Sodium Lactate!!! Seems to work just fine in my CP GM soaps, but not well at all for my HP soaps.
Sorry to get off subject, but I'm just so grateful to figure it out!! Thank you all
Sorry to get off subject, but I'm just so grateful to figure it out!! Thank you all
Thanks so much SoaperForLife! Things are starting to make more sense. I researched these last night but didn’t get this kind of information on them. It did say that cetyl was good because it was non-filming for hair. I would rather invest in btms-50 just because it is one additive instead of two.
@KimberLea I am glad this is helping because we are both learning from this. I never used sodium lactate for my soap and now glad I didn’t.
Hopefully we can both come up with a favorite syndet bar.
I am a little disappointed in Swift Craft Monkey though. If a product doesn’t help a formula why use it? Also, how can it possibly work for some and not others if it’s properties state that it draws in moisture?
Anyway, back to the drawing board for my bar. Stay tuned ladies to see what I come up with
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Dawni
Well-Known Member
I think a lot depends on how much moisture there is to draw in. I'm sure what works for someone in a dry climate will not work for me, with 75-100% humidity almost everyday. I'm talking about both the bar and hair here.Also, how can it possibly work for some and not others if it’s properties state that it draws in moisture?
Anyway, back to the drawing board for my bar. Stay tuned ladies to see what I come up with
Looking forward to your results
Dahila
Well-Known Member
Susan syndets is a good starting point. The problem there is too much liquid if you lower the liquids it comes as decent syndet
@Dawni is right -- humidity makes a BIG difference. Susan lives, IIRC, in British Columbia, Canada. I have no idea what her climate is like, but I suspect it's generally less humid overall than where I live.
Pretty much any 'poo bar I've made stays reasonably firm in our dry winter air. Only a few recipes have been acceptable in summer, however, when it's very humid.
Pretty much any 'poo bar I've made stays reasonably firm in our dry winter air. Only a few recipes have been acceptable in summer, however, when it's very humid.
Yes I live in the Canadian prairies and it does get humid. Not sure what part ofBC Susan is in but the coastal regions would be humid for sure. I think the cetyl alcohol Obsidian mentioned makes way more sense to harden the bar and provide some emollients. I like the idea of a hard bar especially when travelling.
That sounds good Dahila. I will remove the sodium lactate and use the cetyl alcohol instead and i was thinking of taking the SLSa down to 28%. I was researching the btms-25 Obsidian uses and I might switch to that instead of btms-50 but still waffling.
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Dahila
Well-Known Member
Bmts 25 is almost the same you just need to use double amount of it , Bmts 50 is much easier to work with. I also got BMTS plus which is very good for hair but pricey; inci name; Cetearyl Alcohol (and) Behentrimonium Methosulfate. The thing Susans do is shiny hair, I have the hair care ; her book and it is good, I used some formulas to start the conditioner. They do not sell well cause of price, so I started to make very cool ones just for myself... To get better hardness use 1% of stearic acid and the rest Cetreal or cetyl. it makes a different, 1% so it is not draggy on hair. you need humectant also so maybe Panthenol is a good option if powder 1% is enough
Susan is in BC so also very humid. I keep my house cool and ac running dehumidifier too so maybe is not so bad, Mine formula is completely dry in few minutes in shower, the one from her book is very nice but stays wet for about two to three hours
Susan is in BC so also very humid.
I keep my house cool and ac running dehumidifier too so maybe is not so bad, Mine formula is completely dry in few minutes in shower, the one from her book is very nice but stays wet for about two to three hoursBmts 25 is almost the same you just need to use double amount of it , Bmts 50 is much easier to work with. I also got BMTS plus which is very good for hair but pricey; inci name; Cetearyl Alcohol (and) Behentrimonium Methosulfate. The thing Susans do is shiny hair, I have the hair care ; her book and it is good, I used some formulas to start the conditioner. They do not sell well cause of price, so I started to make very cool ones just for myself... To get better hardness use 1% of stearic acid and the rest Cetreal or cetyl. it makes a different, 1% so it is not draggy on hair. you need humectant also so maybe Panthenol is a good option if powder 1% is enough
Susan is in BC so also very humid.
Ok then I just reviewed btms-50 and if you like it I will stick with that. Do you recommend I should get her hair care book? I too would like to try a conditioner bar after I hurdle the shampoo bar.
Ok here is what I have put together for curly dry hair (mine):
SCI Phase
30% SCI noodles
20% Amphosol CG
10% kokum butter
Other Stuff Phase
28% SLSa
3% BTMS-50
5% cetyl alcohol
1.5% silk amino acid
Cool Down Phase
1% Fragrance
1% Panthenol
.05 Germall Plus
The only thing is I am short by 0.5% and I don’t know what to do about that.
So my reasoning:
SCI noodles have more fatty acids for dry hair and good ph. Amphosol CG has good ph. Kokum butter is supposed to be good for hair but would you suggest Jojoba instead?
SLSa has a good ph. BTMS-50 is a good emulsifier, A’s is the cetyl alcohol.
All of these are within 5-7 ph which is good for hair and would not need any adjusting.
OK any comments?
SCI Phase
30% SCI noodles
20% Amphosol CG
10% kokum butter
Other Stuff Phase
28% SLSa
3% BTMS-50
5% cetyl alcohol
1.5% silk amino acid
Cool Down Phase
1% Fragrance
1% Panthenol
.05 Germall Plus
The only thing is I am short by 0.5% and I don’t know what to do about that.
So my reasoning:
SCI noodles have more fatty acids for dry hair and good ph. Amphosol CG has good ph. Kokum butter is supposed to be good for hair but would you suggest Jojoba instead?
SLSa has a good ph. BTMS-50 is a good emulsifier, A’s is the cetyl alcohol.
All of these are within 5-7 ph which is good for hair and would not need any adjusting.
OK any comments?
