Steep water discount? Why not?

[Rahmi]

I was wondering if it's "okay" to use steep easier water discount for most of my soaps. As I understood it, using less water helps fasten the cure time ( how much faster?) & it helps it to get to trace faster.

If I'm only making simple soaps with no scents or designs, why shouldn't I do steep discount? I'm talking something like 1:1 or 1.1:1 water to lye ratio.

I've read that there's more to curing than evaporating the water out. But what is it? I couldn't find specific answers.

Thanks!

 

[Bladesmith]

I don't have the experience to answer your question on the water discounting. I'm pretty new and a HP'er so Im used to using extra water to make my soap easier to work with.

However, I can tell you that it's definitely not just water evaporation. I did some experiments where I freeze-dried some soaps (removed all the water) right after I made the soap. Those soaps seemed a little harder than their non dried counterparts at first but over time it seems like they are curing (and hardening) up at about the same rate. Pretty sure this has to do with the crystalline structure.

Here's an article written by one of our own resident experts here

https://classicbells.com/soap/cure.asp

 

[dixiedragon]

It is my understanding that you can technically use a 1:1 lye: water ratio. But I've never tried it.

You might want to read this:
https://classicbells.com/soap/waterInSoap.asp

I personally wouldn't leap from a standard ratio to 1:1.

 

[Lin19687]

I would Read the postings in the Beginners forum.
There are a ton of questions and answers in there. Many very recent and even some older ones.
A simple search brings up most of them.

 

[cmzaha]

Here is one link for some answers about what happens during cure time. https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/cure-time.35831/ this is answered by our wonderful chemist. She also has a lot of good information on her site located here. https://classicbells.com/soap/soapyStuff.asp

A 50% lye concentration is going to move very fast. It would work best when using 100% OO, but I find 40% better to work with in 100% OO soap. I do know a few here go by the school that higher Lye Concentration slows trace, which I have never found true. It will slow down how high and how long it takes for the batter to heat up. Soaping warmer can cause acceleration. I soap room temp with a 33% Lye Concentration. Recently I was in a hurry and soaped with my oils at 110ºF and my soap seized up. This was the same fragrance as the previous that soap perfectly at room temp.

 

[earlene]

Rahmi, it really depends on your recipe how much lye concentration will work best to keep your soap fluid enough to pour easily in a CP soap. Also your temperatures and how vigorously you mix will affect how quickly the soap comes to trace. If I remember correctly you don't have a SB, so at least that's in your favor if you want to avoid over-zealous mixing that can lead to 'soap on a stick'. I had it happen to me just yesterday, and boy it can happen fast! And that was with a 33% Lye concentration, which is equal to 2:1 water to lye ratio.

I have gone as high as 40% lye concentration, but only with high oleic recipe soaps, like 100% olive oil soap and hand stirring only. It did not cure any faster, in spite of being firmer and harder much earlier. Castile soap takes a long time to cure to the best it can be, and the amount of water makes no difference in my experience. But the good news is, the bars don't warp as much as they do at the (lye calculator's) default amount of water, especially if cut too thin. I moved to chunkier sized soap to avoid the warp, but less water does that, better. AND you save of water if you use less water, so that's another plus.

But as recommended by dixiedragon, I agree that making sudden drastic changes to how you make a recipe isn't the best way to make changes. Perhaps you could use one recipe and do a test of 4 small batches within a couple of days of each other and try use different water amounts and no other changes. Then document your observations for each batch and over time. Make one a control, which would be your normal recipe with your normal amount of water.

Example:
Batch 1: Control (33.33% lye concentration 1:2 lye to water ratio)
Batch 2: 34.5% lye concentration (1:1.9)
Batch 3: 35.7% lye concentration (1:1.8)
Batch 4: 37% lye concentration (1:1.7)

I suggest small increments of change in water amounts for your testing because drastic changes are too different. It's better to see the subtle differences gradually to identify the one that works best for you in your recipe.

 

[Rahmi]

Thank you all!

I'm now thinking, when the soap is fully cured, are all the water is evaporated out? Or only some of it, like 80 or 90% of it?

So i've jumped the gun and I've been using really steep discount already in my soaps , and they seemed fine to me. My 3rd batch, if I remember correctly, was a 1.5:1 water lye ratio, and my castile soap and my last batch of palm/coconut/rice bran was 1.1:1. Of course the castile has been curing for only 2 months, so I don't know how that one would turn out. I tried to soap with it the other day and there was no lather.

 

[shunt2011]

You're best bet is to watch your soaps to see how they change. I have soaps that I've wrapped at 6+weeks and have still had to hit them with a heat gun as they've still lost more/shrunk at 3-6 months. Weigh your soaps to see how long they lose weight.

 

[earlene]

I don't know about 'all' the water, but it can take a long time for all the water to evaporate out. That's not everything that happens during cure. The crystalline structure that forms during cure; the interactions between the molecules as they move within the soap as it cures... All this takes time and water is not the only component of cure.

I suggest you try this experiment to see if you find the same results as so many of use here regarding the benefits of sufficient cure: Make the same recipe with a 'normal' water amount and making one with a very high lye concentration, then waiting for the same length of time to compare them at intervals over time. By making two batches of the exact same soap; one with high water and one with drastically low water, is that you can determine for yourself if cure is nothing more than water loss or if there are other benefits that only time provides.

 

[DeeAnna]

...I'm now thinking, when the soap is fully cured, are all the water is evaporated out?...

All of the water does not evaporate out of soap. After a 4-6 week cure, I estimate the bars lose about 10% of their starting total weight. For the soap I make, that 10% loss represents roughly half of the starting water content.

Even though soap continues to lose weight after the initial cure time, it's not physically and chemically possible for all of the water to evaporate out of soap.

Earlene is right -- curing soap is not just about evaporating water. I recommend you try the experiment she describes and prove to yourself that soap continues to improve over time, even after the initial large water loss is over.

 

[Rahmi]

Thanks all, I did read DeeAnna's explanation on the website about the crystalization.

My question about the water being fully evaporated was just a curiousity, not that I thought water evaporation is the only thing that's important.

 

[DeeAnna]

...My question about the water being fully evaporated was just a curiousity, not that I thought water evaporation is the only thing that's important.

I took your question the way you meant it. It's a good one that is well worth asking. I hope we've answered it to your satisfaction.

 

[Rahmi]

Yes, thanks all