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senaraj

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Hello,
I need help to decide if this recipe will work out for doing swirl designs. Thank you in advance. I am willing to use a blend of Tea tree, lavender and Rosemary essential oil. Also Planning to use oxide colors and planning to soap at room temperature i.e... at 33 celcius

Soywax recipe.JPG
 
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KiwiMoose

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Hello,
I need help to decide if this recipe will work out for doing swirl designs. Thank you in advance. I am willing to use a blend of Tea tree, lavender and Rosemary essential oil. Also Planning to use oxide colors and planning to soap at room temperature i.e... at 33 celcius
If you're asking this because you think the soy wax will affect swirls - it won't. I use soy wax at 20% and also Shea butter at 10% and do swirls aplenty. However, I would recommend you soap a bit warmer than 33 degrees because you can get stearic spots or false trace. I usually soap around 38 minimum - usually more like 42.
 

senaraj

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If you're asking this because you think the soy wax will affect swirls - it won't. I use soy wax at 20% and also Shea butter at 10% and do swirls aplenty. However, I would recommend you soap a bit warmer than 33 degrees because you can get stearic spots or false trace. I usually soap around 38 minimum - usually more like 42.
I need to also know if this recipe trace faster when I work at a higher temperature?
 

GemstonePony

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I need to also know if this recipe trace faster when I work at a higher temperature?
Faster compared to what? All tracing speeds are relative to your prior experience and expectations. I'd estimate 75% of controlling trace is knowing how to mix and when to stop. Keep the temp between 37-46° C, and the rest is up to your judgment.
Warming up batter in the microwave briefly is a technique some of us use to make thickened batter at the end of a pour more fluid, so higher temps don't always mean thicker batter.
Conversely, if you start too cool, your solid fats/oils can start to re-solidify into pudding, so cooler doesn't necessarily mean more fluid either.
 

Quanta

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I want to clear something up that seems to confuse people regarding soy wax.

If your soy wax flakes are very hard and dry and feel like bits of brittle plastic AND have a HIGH melting point, it is fully hydrogenated and is NOT the kind used for making candles*, but can be used in skin care products.

If your soy wax flakes are a little bit soft and feel somewhat oily, AND have a LOW melting point, it is partially hydrogenated and is the kind that is frequently blended with additives and used for candles. If you want it without the candle additives so you can use it in skin care products, make sure you are buying GW415 or equivalent.

They have similar, but different SAP values. Fully hydrogenated soybean oil has a slightly higher SAP (0.137 for NaOH) vs. partially hydrogenated or just plain soybean oil (0.136). However, they each have very different fatty acid profiles and will make very different soaps. Go to the SoapMaking Friend lye calculator and look at the numbers and the recipe properties for each one (including just plain unhydrogenated soybean oil).

*Here is what happens when you use the fully hydrogenated stuff to make scented candles (scroll down a few posts to see the timelapse videos): help. why is this happening?
 

earlene

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I want to clear something up that seems to confuse people regarding soy wax.

If your soy wax flakes are very hard and dry and feel like bits of brittle plastic AND have a HIGH melting point, it is fully hydrogenated and is NOT the kind used for making candles*, but can be used in skin care products.

If your soy wax flakes are a little bit soft and feel somewhat oily, AND have a LOW melting point, it is partially hydrogenated and is the kind that is frequently blended with additives and used for candles. If you want it without the candle additives so you can use it in skin care products, make sure you are buying GW415 or equivalent.

They have similar, but different SAP values. Fully hydrogenated soybean oil has a slightly higher SAP (0.137 for NaOH) vs. partially hydrogenated or just plain soybean oil (0.136). However, they each have very different fatty acid profiles and will make very different soaps. Go to the SoapMaking Friend lye calculator and look at the numbers and the recipe properties for each one (including just plain unhydrogenated soybean oil).

*Here is what happens when you use the fully hydrogenated stuff to make scented candles (scroll down a few posts to see the timelapse videos): help. why is this happening?
I didn't know individuals (as opposed to large corporations) could still purchase fully hydrogenated Soy anymore in the US. I tried some time ago and had no luck finding anyone who would sell small quantities.

I do use GW415, but have customized it in Soapmaking Recipe Builder per the data gathered by @Mobjack Bay (see this thread).

I believe some folks who cannot obtain GW415, such as some the UK & down under are using 464 with good results.
 

KiwiMoose

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I believe some folks who cannot obtain GW415, such as some the UK & down under are using 464 with good results.
I use 415 but last year ( unbeknown to me until I was at the end of my 5kg box) I used 464 and didn't notice any difference at all. Somebody at my suppliers had shipped me the wrong stuff!
 

Quanta

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I didn't know individuals (as opposed to large corporations) could still purchase fully hydrogenated Soy anymore in the US. I tried some time ago and had no luck finding anyone who would sell small quantities.
I got mine from MMS. They do not make it clear on their website that it is what they're selling. I had no idea what it was until I got it. I thought I was buying something like GW415 or similar, but when I received it, it didn't look right. I looked up the info sheet for fully hydrogenated soybean oil from an industrial supplier, and the melting temperature matches the stuff I have (close to 160°, whereas the melting temperature of partially hydrogenated soybean oil, i.e. GW415 is more like 120 - 125° or so) It also feels like it has no oil in it when I rub a piece between my fingers, which makes sense.


On that page it says that you can make candles with it, but since they don't make candles at MMS they only use it in cosmetics. Since my attempts at using it for candles was disastrous and hilarious, I really don't think they know what they have.
 

meena.shah

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I can't speak for replacement of any of those three because I've never used them. I use about 20% soy wax as my 'hardener' for want of a better word, to replace the need for any of those three. I also use 10 - 15% shea butter in every batch and my soaps seem to have a lovely lather. I use 20 % CO as well and the rest soft oils.
Can you please help? I want to know do you melt soy wax with your hard oils or separat?
 

earlene

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Can you please help? I want to know do you melt soy wax with your hard oils or separat?
I melt my soy wax & other hard oils with some of the liquid oils. The added heat of the soft oils surrounding the hard oils helps them to melt. I generally do this in the microwave overn, but it can be done in a crock pot or on stove top or hot plate or however you normally heat things.
 

meena.shah

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I melt my soy wax & other hard oils with some of the liquid oils. The added heat of the soft oils surrounding the hard oils helps them to melt. I generally do this in the microwave overn, but it can be done in a crock pot or on stove top or hot plate or however you normally heat things.
Thank you
 

Johnez

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I don't want to derail this thread at all (I see it happened early on) but is there any sort of reassurance with regards to soy and it's estrogenic properties for dudes? I want to try to make a shave soap with soy being it has the highest stearic content and found an amazing recipe online.

This seems the perfect ingredient for shave soap checking a lot of the required boxes AND helps avoid palm and animal products.
 
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Quanta

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I don't want to derail this thread at all (I see it happened early on) but is there any sort of reassurance with regards to soy and it's estrogenic properties for dudes? I want to try to make a shave soap with soy being it has the highest stearic content and found an amazing recipe online.

This seams the perfect ingredient for shave soap checking a lot of the required boxes AND helps avoid palm and animal products.
As far as I know, there's only cause for concern if you're eating it.
 

KiwiMoose

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I don't want to derail this thread at all (I see it happened early on) but is there any sort of reassurance with regards to soy and it's estrogenic properties for dudes? I want to try to make a shave soap with soy being it has the highest stearic content and found an amazing recipe online.

This seems the perfect ingredient for shave soap checking a lot of the required boxes AND helps avoid palm and animal products.
That whole soy containing oestrogen thing is a storm in a teacup. The plant-based oestrogen contained in soy is not the same as the female hormone and will not affect males if eaten. The Top 5 Soy Myths
 

earlene

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I don't want to derail this thread at all (I see it happened early on) but is there any sort of reassurance with regards to soy and it's estrogenic properties for dudes? I want to try to make a shave soap with soy being it has the highest stearic content and found an amazing recipe online.
Think about this:
How long does the lather remain on the skin? Is it long enough to absorb anything that remains in the soap AFTER saponification?

Also, highly processes soy products have fewer phytoestrogens than raw soy beans and the lesser processed forms of soy. Heat also breaks them down. So what is left of these phytoestrogens in soy after heat and sodium hydroxide have done their thing?

Besides that "Phytoestrogens are not found in the fatty portion of the soybean plant. This is why soybean oil does not contain phytoestrogens. " (https://www.thelamfoundation.org/Portals/0/Files/5 - Soy and LAM.pdf?ver=2016-02-01-132355-793)
 

Johnez

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Think about this:
How long does the lather remain on the skin? Is it long enough to absorb anything that remains in the soap AFTER saponification?

Also, highly processes soy products have fewer phytoestrogens than raw soy beans and the lesser processed forms of soy. Heat also breaks them down. So what is left of these phytoestrogens in soy after heat and sodium hydroxide have done their thing?

Besides that "Phytoestrogens are not found in the fatty portion of the soybean plant. This is why soybean oil does not contain phytoestrogens. " (https://www.thelamfoundation.org/Portals/0/Files/5 - Soy and LAM.pdf?ver=2016-02-01-132355-793)
Very interesting, thank you so much for sharing. I had a feeling it wasn't such a big deal even if the estrogen concern was valid being it's a wash off product. The fact that phytoestrogen isn't found in the fat deals it for me and I'll definitely give soy a try in the future.

That whole soy containing oestrogen thing is a storm in a teacup. The plant-based oestrogen contained in soy is not the same as the female hormone and will not affect males if eaten. The Top 5 Soy Myths
Thank you both, this was the exact nudge I needed.
 
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Quanta

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In general, your skin does a fantastic job of keeping things out of your body. I have seen websites that claim that within 30 seconds or whatever, everything you put on your skin is in your bloodstream. This is demonstrably false. If it were true, the manufacturers of nicotine patches and estrogen patches wouldn't have to add ingredients that force those substances deep enough into the skin to be absorbed into the bloodstream.

I also remember seeing recently a comparison of the estrogenic strength of parabens, soy products, and the human body's own natural estrogen. Parabens are very nearly nothing at all, soy is a smidge more, and natural human estrogen was waaaaay up there. I looked online and can't find it now but basically you would have to eat abnormally large amounts of soy for it to have any effect on you.
 

ResolvableOwl

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I don't want to derail this thread at all (I see it happened early on) but is there any sort of reassurance with regards to soy and it's estrogenic properties for dudes?
Many things have been brought up already. Let me add that even if phytoestrogens made it into the oil, I don't believe that they would survive the harsh conditions of hydrogenation (high temperatures, hydrogen pressure, catalysts). Not even a simple molecule like oleic acid does, and that's the whole point of hydrogenation.

But if you (or your customers) still aren't convinced (or you want to avoid the silly “unmanly” rep of soy for the sake of “green labeling”), you still can opt for a hydrogenated wax made from canola or sunflower oil. Guaranteed 100% safe from containing any soy phytoestrogens.
 

Johnez

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Many things have been brought up already. Let me add that even if phytoestrogens made it into the oil, I don't believe that they would survive the harsh conditions of hydrogenation (high temperatures, hydrogen pressure, catalysts). Not even a simple molecule like oleic acid does, and that's the whole point of hydrogenation.

But if you (or your customers) still aren't convinced (or you want to avoid the silly “unmanly” rep of soy for the sake of “green labeling”), you still can opt for a hydrogenated wax made from canola or sunflower oil. Guaranteed 100% safe from containing any soy phytoestrogens.
Thanks, I may have missed it-there's a lot of info floating around. Also I'm a noob, won't be selling any time soon (probably never) so I may have seen it but not registered that since I wasn't super interested in soy till I found out it was a high source of stearic acid. Regardless-this is definitely going in the notes. I don't want to derail the thread further but am happy to see this info out there. Thanks, and apology for derail but special thanks to @KiwiMoose for starting this discussion.
 

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