Soleseife which turn from cp to hp

[Seyrie5025]

Hi im starting learning soleseife soap from this forum and want to ask what happen with my soap...i try to make soleseife soap with 1.7 :1 water : lye ratio, 35 % olive oil pomace, 30 % coconut oil, 15 % tamanu oil, 10 % tallow and 10 % castor oil (i plan to make castor 5 percent however there is some miss measurement so need to adjust the recipe), sf 7 and add kukui oil 1 teaspoon mix with lavender mica..

On terms of lye water i use 1:1 dilution of lye..rest of water then mix with 20 percent salt..disolve and boiled. The oil only tallow that was heated.. I waited till 20 minutes and mix the salt water to lye after lye dissolved and my error infrared (said error cause there is problem when i used it that day) showed my lye water 69 c and oil 40 c

So i mix it and on 5 minutes reach trace..then put on mold i saw the batter separate...so i rescue it and continue with blender...but then something happen...the mix got more bright and..vaselline? Like i used to cook hp soap...zap test then free..and the structure of my soap similarly like like hp soap..its also very hot when i check by hands...

After its cooler i moved my soap to regrigerator and cut it around 4 hours..fortunately its smooth...but im questioning..why its false trace or why its morphing like hp soap?perhaps people who are more skilled and i could help analysis this , i put the soap pic on mold and then after unmold and cut..really appreciate for your feedback..and pls forgive me for my english..its not my first language.

 

[Marsi]

There are some that practice a counter-top type technique to create a HP-type soap, by using hot ingredients at the start of the process and then blending to completion. This sounds like what you have done.

Separation can happen from high heat or false trace
Check out the pictures in this thread A picture of ricing, volcanos, separating, overheating
I believe your separation was from high heat, not false trace.

1:1 lye solutions can heat up again when you add water.
Your final lye concentration was high, at 37% lye concentration, so your soap would gel easily
This is a great page to see What's Hot and What's Not - A Study In Overheating

You added the brine solution to your 1:1 lye solution just before you made the soap, if I have understood you correctly?
The temperature of your lye may have gone up on the addition of the brine, and was actually hot. Whether your infrared reader was also faulty is another issue.
Stick blending would have pushed the process along even faster and essentially you made a counter-top HP soap.

Soap still looks great - nice save!

 

[Seyrie5025]

Yeah its exactly like you said..i used 1:1 and then mixed the salt water on it..perhaps i should wait till really cool down..thats my mistake since i though my thermometer is error..thank you for explaining in detail...i was thought it will be problem when cut..but thank god it was saved

 

[amd]

.i try to make soleseife soap with 1.7 :1 water

Increase your water to lye ratio to 2:1 or more. You're using up 20% of the water for the salt solution, so you may actually be ending up with less water in a way than you think. [pretty sure I'm not explaining my thinking right...]

On terms of lye water i use 1:1 dilution of lye..rest of water then mix with 20 percent salt..disolve and boiled. The oil only tallow that was heated.. I waited till 20 minutes and mix the salt water to lye after lye dissolved and my error infrared (said error cause there is problem when i used it that day) showed my lye water 69 c and oil 40 c

When I make soleseife, I mix the water and salt separate from the water and lye, so essentially I'm adding salt water to lye water. Question: was your 20% salt calculated from the total water or from the remainder not used for dissolving lye?

More than likely I think the salt separated from your lye solution and caused false trace, which then separated in your mold.

 

[earlene]

No, that was not false trace, that was accidental Hot Process, as Marsi mentions. The evidence is in the temperatures of your lye solution (69°C), your formula (high stearic acid content of your oils), the progression through the phases normally seen in HP, and the photos of your soap (typical looking HP soap).

The temperature of our oils was fine, but the temperature difference between your oils and your lye solution was far too much. The recommended temperature difference between your oils & lye solution should only be about 5°C to prevent problems (or 10°F)

Another factor could also contribute and that is environmental temperatures. I am not sure, but is Indonesia particularly warm this time of year? Environmental heat plays a part in soapmaking as well as temperatures of oils and lye solution and any other additives. I'm sorry to read that your thermometer was malfunctioning as that certainly makes the situation more difficult and can increase stress during soapmaking.

You should also be aware that your oils contributed to the overheating, as well. Pomace olive oil traces very fast when I use it. Tallow has a lot of stearic acid, so it traces quickly, too. As does Coconut oil, which also heats up very quickly.

ETA: I did not take into consideration the brine itself, only the heat. But since you said the lye solution heated up so much, I take it the salt remained in solution and did not separate out in the lye solution.

Cross posted with amd.

amd, I think Seyrie said she boiled the additional water and salt together to create the brine, then added the hot brine to the cool 1:1 lye solution.

But that leads to an additional question: Seyrie, did you weight the brine after boiling? Did it still weigh what it should have weighed? Did the weight of the brine equal the total of salt + additional water? Or did it lose weight from evaporation? If so that would indicate you had even less water than you thought.

 

[amd]

No, that was not false trace, that was accidental Hot Process, as Marsi mentions.

Sorry, I was referring to this situation the OP stated

So i mix it and on 5 minutes reach trace..then put on mold i saw the batter separate...

I believe false trace caused the batter to separate in this case. But yes, I agree with the accidental HP (I just realized temps were C and not F, which puts things into a different perspective for me because things were not making sense for why OP was soaping at near freezing temps... I'll go get some coffee now...)

 

[Seyrie5025]

Increase your water to lye ratio to 2:1 or more. You're using up 20% of the water for the salt solution, so you may actually be ending up with less water in a way than you think. [pretty sure I'm not explaining my thinking right...]


When I make soleseife, I mix the water and salt separate from the water and lye, so essentially I'm adding salt water to lye water. Question: was your 20% salt calculated from the total water or from the remainder not used for dissolving lye?

More than likely I think the salt separated from your lye solution and caused false trace, which then separated in your mold.

I only used 20 percent measured from the rest of water that didnt use on lye water, i measured the water before and after...i pour some water to make up the water loss...

 

[Seyrie5025]

No, that was not false trace, that was accidental Hot Process, as Marsi mentions. The evidence is in the temperatures of your lye solution (69°C), your formula (high stearic acid content of your oils), the progression through the phases normally seen in HP, and the photos of your soap (typical looking HP soap).

The temperature of our oils was fine, but the temperature difference between your oils and your lye solution was far too much. The recommended temperature difference between your oils & lye solution should only be about 5°C to prevent problems (or 10°F)

Another factor could also contribute and that is environmental temperatures. I am not sure, but is Indonesia particularly warm this time of year? Environmental heat plays a part in soapmaking as well as temperatures of oils and lye solution and any other additives. I'm sorry to read that your thermometer was malfunctioning as that certainly makes the situation more difficult and can increase stress during soapmaking.

You should also be aware that your oils contributed to the overheating, as well. Pomace olive oil traces very fast when I use it. Tallow has a lot of stearic acid, so it traces quickly, too. As does Coconut oil, which also heats up very quickly.

ETA: I did not take into consideration the brine itself, only the heat. But since you said the lye solution heated up so much, I take it the salt remained in solution and did not separate out in the lye solution.

Cross posted with amd.

amd, I think Seyrie said she boiled the additional water and salt together to create the brine, then added the hot brine to the cool 1:1 lye solution.

But that leads to an additional question: Seyrie, did you weight the brine after boiling? Did it still weigh what it should have weighed? Did the weight of the brine equal the total of salt + additional water? Or did it lose weight from evaporation? If so that would indicate you had even less water than you thought.

Yes ofc the water will have reduction..i know people always said to add more 10 or 20 but sometimes the reduction is unclear for me..so i make up the loss water later before...yes..i add the salt water into cooled lye before..thats why its heating up...

Yes my country is very hot and i make soap at the afternoon so its really hot on room temp, perhaps above 33c ..i touched my soap utensils and its very hot...

Its difficult to differentiate either its separation or false trace..at first i have made sure the oil has mixed and even stir it till it thick enough...when i put on silicon mold then the batter start to morphed into more oil...and the colour also change into darker..perhaps thats where its gelling also...is it possible to have gelling on false trace?

 

[Seyrie5025]

Ah..i forgot to mention..i put eucalyptus essential oil also on the last part. Its around 1.5 percent of total oil

 

[earlene]

...is it possible to have gelling on false trace?

I am not really sure how to answer that since you said you brought it to gel after it started to separate in the mold:

then put on mold i saw the batter separate...so i rescue it and continue with blender...but then something happen...the mix got more bright and..vaselline? Like i used to cook hp soap...zap test then free.

And really, I don't think you would have false trace with such a hot lye solution AND with those fast tracing oils.

But at this point, that doesn't really matter for this case, because you brought the soap to gel phase and it was already zap-free as you say, therefore it did gel when you re-mixed it and it turned to the Vaseline stage (gel phase).

I don't think eucalyptus EO accelerates trace. And it is such a small amount, I doubt the temperature of the EO would do much to the soap when added at the end, unless it was refrigerated, and even then, I am not sure if it would cause separation if well mixed before pouring into the mold. After all 1.5% is a very small amount of the overall batch weight. But then again, perhaps it could (cold EO added to hot batter), but I have never experienced that because I don't refrigerate my fragrances.

 

[Marsi]

Yes ofc the water will have reduction..i know people always said to add more 10 or 20 but sometimes the reduction is unclear for me..so i make up the loss water later before...yes..i add the salt water into cooled lye before..thats why its heating up...

Yes my country is very hot and i make soap at the afternoon so its really hot on room temp, perhaps above 33c ..i touched my soap utensils and its very hot...

Its difficult to differentiate either its separation or false trace..at first i have made sure the oil has mixed and even stir it till it thick enough...when i put on silicon mold then the batter start to morphed into more oil...and the colour also change into darker..perhaps thats where its gelling also...is it possible to have gelling on false trace?

Wait a while for the lye solution to cool down again after you add your extra brine and water
Like you did with your final soap, you can use your hand to gauge the temperature of the containers of lye and oils
At an ambient temperature of 33 degrees Celsius or higher, you will not get false trace if you start with room temperature lye solution and liquid fats

From your description, your soap was gelling, overheating and separating in the mold
Try blending less, your batter does not need to be thick to pour
This is an excellent video on the topic Emulsion, Trace, False Trace, and Acceleration

I agree with Earlene, eucalyptus does not accelerate trace

 

[Seyrie5025]

I am not really sure how to answer that since you said you brought it to gel after it started to separate in the mold:



And really, I don't think you would have false trace with such a hot lye solution AND with those fast tracing oils.

But at this point, that doesn't really matter for this case, because you brought the soap to gel phase and it was already zap-free as you say, therefore it did gel when you re-mixed it and it turned to the Vaseline stage (gel phase).

I don't think eucalyptus EO accelerates trace. And it is such a small amount, I doubt the temperature of the EO would do much to the soap when added at the end, unless it was refrigerated, and even then, I am not sure if it would cause separation if well mixed before pouring into the mold. After all 1.5% is a very small amount of the overall batch weight. But then again, perhaps it could (cold EO added to hot batter), but I have never experienced that because I don't refrigerate my fragrances.

Thank you for your analysis
I didnt aware that i brought it to gel, later after it get vaselline then im aware of it. So if we refrigerate soap that has eo / fo it will have some reaction? i havr never know that before..the temp on my country always make me worry so i rarely insulate my soap at mold and if its getting that hot out of worry if its cracked so i refrigerate it after the batter get cooler down , i always observe the reaction during its hot too

This is second time my soap pair with tamanu recipe, before i used aloevera mix with tamanu and make either hot or cold processed soap with that same recipe, contained 10 percent tamanu oil..
My Tamanu soap always make the mix lye and oil a bit clump at first impression..so usually if that happen i need to stop the blender and blend it using the manual whisk so the oil and batter will mix, ..so far its always resulting thick batter..perhaps thats because of my recipe..ill try make another soft oil soap recipe and will update here on another post

Many of my friend make tamanu soap and we love it very much... Its good for skin and people have said its reducing the itchy feeling..even psoriatic friend i have said same

The exportor who made cold pressed tamanu used it up to 40 percent, however thats very over budget for me..ill keep it at 20 maximum.

 

[Seyrie5025]

Wait a while for the lye solution to cool down again after you add your extra brine and water
Like you did with your final soap, you can use your hand to gauge the temperature of the containers of lye and oils
At an ambient temperature of 33 degrees Celsius or higher, you will not get false trace if you start with room temperature lye solution and liquid fats

From your description, your soap was gelling, overheating and separating in the mold
Try blending less, your batter does not need to be thick to pour
This is an excellent video on the topic Emulsion, Trace, False Trace, and Acceleration

I agree with Earlene, eucalyptus does not accelerate trace

Thank you for the tips..for first of my brine soap i will noted that i need to do that like you said...

Im just using eucalyptus eo for 2 times on my hp soap so i cant guess how it will react for cp, .

eucalyptus has been really popular lately this month since my country department announce eucalyptus oil has succeeded killing covid 19 at score of 80 - 100 %, by some research. Sorry if its out of topic

 

[Seyrie5025]

I follow marci suggestion today and it works fine, soap at room temperature, no overheating and its cold processed..thank you for marci, amd, and earlene for your detailed feedback..i really appreciate it..

This is brine double coconut soap with 93 % coconut oil, 7 % castor oil, sf 20, brine was made using 20 % salt on coconut milk mix with lye..im using fresh coconut, after milking then boiled it to dissolve the salt, after cool down i put on freezer...it wont get frozen..

I also Use active charcoal 2tsp and lavender eo 1.5 %

Coconut oil since autism cant use olive oil.. Castor oil was used for pack to help on neural support
Active charcoal is used for detox, aitism.can use charcoal for detox so their gut will be cleaner out of bad bacteria and lavender used for helps calming them down and assist on sleeping trouble. All was considered scientifically using medicine journal and autism guideline therapy also as i was from medicine background..

This soap was designed after i research for autism..we had autism kid at our neighbourhood so its for helping her during her stricted BIT diet plan...hope it will go smooth when unmold and cut...

 

[CaraBou]

Just to clarify: batter made with high lye concentration saponifies and hardens quicker than batter made with low lye concentration. But high lye concentration requires higher temperatures to gel, which might be interpreted as being harder to achieve rather than easier.

Your final lye concentration was high, at 37% lye concentration, so your soap would gel easily

 

[Marsi]

I follow marci suggestion today and it works fine, soap at room temperature, no overheating and its cold processed..thank you for marci, amd, and earlene for your detailed feedback..i really appreciate it..

This is brine double coconut soap with 93 % coconut oil, 7 % castor oil, sf 20, brine was made using 20 % salt on coconut milk mix with lye..im using fresh coconut, after milking then boiled it to dissolve the salt, after cool down i put on freezer...it wont get frozen..

I also Use active charcoal 2tsp and lavender eo 1.5 %

Coconut oil since autism cant use olive oil.. Castor oil was used for pack to help on neural support
Active charcoal is used for detox, aitism.can use charcoal for detox so their gut will be cleaner out of bad bacteria and lavender used for helps calming them down and assist on sleeping trouble. All was considered scientifically using medicine journal and autism guideline therapy also as i was from medicine background..

This soap was designed after i research for autism..we had autism kid at our neighbourhood so its for helping her during her stricted BIT diet plan...hope it will go smooth when unmold and cut...

Good thinking on cooling the coconut milk brine solution in the freezer
Coconut oil based soaps can overheat even more easily that your original recipe, so very well done!
You have overcome your hot soaping environment by modifying your processes

Water can turn solid next to a brine solution that might get mushy but wont freeze
Brine freezes at a colder temperature than plain water

The back-story on how you developed your soap recipe shows your kind heart, thank-you for sharing
I hope the cut looks as good as the swirl top of your CP soap

 

[Seyrie5025]

Its fine despite stearic spot..so i think the oil could be warmed more..by cooling down i could still slow into emulsion and able to make the swirl...though its getting hotter on mold...i try to insulate to reduce the essential oil evaporation..keep watch per hour..on 2nd hour its already hard and start cracking..i cut it..close enough, its already hard to cut and fix the crack by hands and spray alcohol 70 percent..and put it on aircon room.... here is the result..sorry if its a bit unclear....but i feel happy with the result

 

[CaraBou]

That is stunning!! I love black, white & gray soaps. The fresh coconut milk sounds lovely. Congrats on such a success.

 

[Marsi]

I can see why you feel happy with the result
Your swirl is beautiful