Soda ash inside loaf?

[Vicki C]

Hi all, I made a lemongrass / litsea soap over the weekend that has white streaks through it that look like soda ash, but I’m not sure. The soap has three colors, yellow, pale green from comfrey infused oil, and uncolored. The colors were made by adding infused OO to a portion of soap after mixing a lye heavy base (infused OO 40% of total) I added the EOs to all three colors, but mixed them with kaolin clay, which I have never tried before. I am not sure if I didn’t mix it well enough? There were 4T of clay in 3000 g of soap. I tried steaming it out and it sort of worked, but doesn’t look great. Thoughts? The recipe is one I have used many times.

 

[Peachy Clean Soap]

Hi all, I made a lemongrass / litsea soap over the weekend that has white streaks through it that look like soda ash, but I’m not sure. The soap has three colors, yellow, pale green from comfrey infused oil, and uncolored. The colors were made by adding infused OO to a portion of soap after mixing a lye heavy base (infused OO 40% of total) I added the EOs to all three colors, but mixed them with kaolin clay, which I have never tried before. I am not sure if I didn’t mix it well enough? There were 4T of clay in 3000 g of soap. I tried steaming it out and it sort of worked, but doesn’t look great. Thoughts? The recipe is one I have used many times.
View attachment 60833

Love how it turned out! beautiful. I don't know if it's soda ash? never heard of soda ash being inside the soap'but its beautiful.

 

[Vicki C]

Love how it turned out! beautiful. I don't know if it's soda ash? never heard of soda ash being inside the soap'but its beautiful.

Thank you! That’s kind of you to say, I like it ok but am not sure what that white is? The soap color is that other creamy white color.

 

[maryloucb]

Thank you! That’s kind of you to say, I like it ok but am not sure what that white is? The soap color is that other creamy white color.

I’ve had uncolored soap do that before. I have no idea why. Yours is beautiful!

 

[KiwiMoose]

Possibly something to do wiht the Kaolin clay and/or glycerin rivers/stearic swirls?

 

[Tara_H]

I had that effect on quite a few of my earlier soaps before I increased the lye concentration. The fact that it disappeared was just a happy side effects of my efforts to get a slow trace, but it does lead me to think it's soda ash related. Especially because (like yours) it tended to follow the path of the designs, so I wonder are those areas which had more air incorporated during the pour?

 

[Vicki C]

I’ve had uncolored soap do that before. I have no idea why. Yours is beautiful!

That looks like the same phenomenon, following the swirls of the soap. Thank you! I like it ok I’m just a little unsure about that white.

Possibly something to do wiht the Kaolin clay and/or glycerin rivers/stearic swirls?

maybe… I’m wondering about the clay, but I am not sure this is from the clay. I’ve had stearic spots - didn’t know stearic swirls could happen.

I had that effect on quite a few of my earlier soaps before I increased the lye concentration. The fact that it disappeared was just a happy side effects of my efforts to get a slow trace, but it does lead me to think it's soda ash related. Especially because (like yours) it tended to follow the path of the designs, so I wonder are those areas which had more air incorporated during the pour?

thats interesting - maybe so. I soap at a 39% lye concentration, or water at 25% of oils. This soap was at a pretty thick trace. When I hit it with the steamer the white stripes sort of bubble and then dissipate somewhat. This soap is for a big (to me) wholesale order and I want it to be right so I’m on the fence about redoing or steaming them all and going with the white as a design element. I’m thinking design element.

 

[ResolvableOwl]

I don't quite get your point. Is it that one of the coloured batters has a chalky appearance? Or is it just not so good visible in the photo? Is the “ash” there immediately after cutting, or does it develop over time?
I once had a HP soap that I too early took off the stove & cut (still zappy), and it developed soda ash on all sides over the first days of cure.
Other than the already mentioned glycerin rivers (mind the ghost swirl ), I've had an (overly) generous sodium lactate addition that can be mistaken for soda ash too.
Have you changed your lye recently? Do you happen to have an originally sealed NaOH container lurking around, with which you can try if it has to do something with the lye purity?

Besides steaming, rubbing with water, diluted rubbing alcohol and/or microfibre would be an option to get rid of it, maybe also planing.


That said, from what I see I have absolutely no objections to the look of that bar! If it were me, go for it. They look fabulous as-is.

 

[cmzaha]

Not knowing your recipe a 39% lye concentration would not be 25% water as % of oil. A 39% lye concentration should not produce glycerin rivers, since it usually takes a higher percentage of water to produce the effect of the glycerin rivers, or when creating the ghosting effect of white on white swirls in soap. To me, it looks like ghost swirls. Are you sure you have not mixed up the numbers of the lye concentration versus water as percent of oil?

Does your soap zap? Ash is not going to be in the middle of soap, it takes lye coming reacting with the carbon dioxide in the air to form the ash so ash can only form on the outside of the cut soap. If your soap is still zappy when cut it can quickly form ash. It looks quite pretty.

 

[earlene]

I have had what appears to be soda ash grow on cut surfaces of soap, therefore the middle of a loaf, but not until they sat for a length of time exposed to the air. It was particularly noticeable in the lye heavy soaps (purposely lye heavy from the Andalusian Castile experiment.)

You do mention you used a Lye-Heavy base and wonder if perhaps you did not mix well enough. If you didn't mix well enough, yes, soda ash could develop on the cut surface in those parts of the soap. Have you zap tested the soap?

However, if there was no zap, I'd perhaps look at the clay itself. Is it possible you used too much clay for the amount of batter and the clay is what you are seeing?

I am not really sure what you are seeing that you suspect to be soda ash (photo? My eyes? my perception of what appears to me to be swirls?)

If you mean the more opaque white rather than the more translucent lighter shades, then I really don't understand what you are trying to steam off, as the opaque white looks like the result of adding a whiter clay to that portion than to the other portions.

My precaution would be to make sure the soap is truly zap free, and if all surfaces are, then it is safe and there is no need to steam off anything. The design is beautiful as it stands.

 

[maryloucb]

As others have already noted—soda ash takes some time to show up, so I don’t think it’s that. It is more of a ghost swirl phenomenon. I would leave it—it looks beautiful and complements the design.

 

[Megan]

I've had similar things happen when I've poured at too light a trace before. So it could be that the other colors were mixed more thoroughly and the mottled one wasn't mixed well enough. As I recall, the soap was safe when this happened to me, but I'd zap test it in a few days to be sure.

 

[cmzaha]

I have had what appears to be soda ash grow on cut surfaces of soap, therefore the middle of a loaf, but not until they sat for a length of time exposed to the air. It was particularly noticeable in the lye heavy soaps (purposely lye heavy from the Andalusian Castile experiment.)

When I mentioned not finding ash in the middle of a bar I was referring to a fresh cut into the middle. As you mention it has to be exposed to the air which of course means it does not matter where the cut comes from. I thought the OP was thinking it was ash from a fresh-cut which as we know does not happen.

 

[Vicki C]

I don't quite get your point. Is it that one of the coloured batters has a chalky appearance? Or is it just not so good visible in the photo? Is the “ash” there immediately after cutting, or does it develop over time?
I once had a HP soap that I too early took off the stove & cut (still zappy), and it developed soda ash on all sides over the first days of cure.
Other than the already mentioned glycerin rivers (mind the ghost swirl ), I've had an (overly) generous sodium lactate addition that can be mistaken for soda ash too.
Have you changed your lye recently? Do you happen to have an originally sealed NaOH container lurking around, with which you can try if it has to do something with the lye purity?

Besides steaming, rubbing with water, diluted rubbing alcohol and/or microfibre would be an option to get rid of it, maybe also planing.


That said, from what I see I have absolutely no objections to the look of that bar! If it were me, go for it. They look fabulous as-is.

I did recently change my lye, hmm… and good to know about the SL I might have been too generous. I recently started adding sodium gluconate, but it was thoroughly dissolved.

Not knowing your recipe a 39% lye concentration would not be 25% water as % of oil. A 39% lye concentration should not produce glycerin rivers, since it usually takes a higher percentage of water to produce the effect of the glycerin rivers, or when creating the ghosting effect of white on white swirls in soap. To me, it looks like ghost swirls. Are you sure you have not mixed up the numbers of the lye concentration versus water as percent of oil?

Does your soap zap? Ash is not going to be in the middle of soap, it takes lye coming reacting with the carbon dioxide in the air to form the ash so ash can only form on the outside of the cut soap. If your soap is still zappy when cut it can quickly form ash. It looks quite pretty.

Yes you’re quite right good catch it’s a 35% lye concentration. I use soap calc and I usually think in terms of water: oils. Here are my ratios.

It‘s not zappy, but it looks like soda ash. It’s more opaque than the rest of the soap.

If you mean the more opaque white rather than the more translucent lighter shades, then I really don't understand what you are trying to steam off, as the opaque white looks like the result of adding a whiter clay to that portion than to the other portions.

My precaution would be to make sure the soap is truly zap free, and if all surfaces are, then it is safe and there is no need to steam off anything. The design is beautiful as it stands.

thanks Earlene. It isn’t zappy but steaming did tone down those white streaks.There was ash on the top of the soap and this looked the same. Maybe it is just the clay, but I did mix and stick blend after I added the clay.

I've had similar things happen when I've poured at too light a trace before. So it could be that the other colors were mixed more thoroughly and the mottled one wasn't mixed well enough. As I recall, the soap was safe when this happened to me, but I'd zap test it in a few days to be sure.

It might be mixing - it was at a thick trace so that wasn’t the issue.

 

[glendam]

Were the oils and lye water at cooler temperatures? I have had that happened and when I looked it up, what explained it the best was “uneven crystallization” or “deep soda ash”, caused by uneven or low temperatures. Did your soap go through gel phase by chance?

 

[Vicki C]

Were the oils and lye water at cooler temperatures? I have had that happened and when I looked it up, what explained it the best was “uneven crystallization” or “deep soda ash”, caused by uneven or low temperatures. Did your soap go through gel phase by chance?

Eureka. Those are good points. I mixed the oil and lye for all three colors at about 105* but because I was adding infused oil to the colors and plain OO to the uncolored (40% of total oils) the batter did cool down a bit. I was worried about that so I heated up the OO for the uncolored batter but only to about 85*. I didn’t heat up the infused OO at all. Impatient I guess. So I think there is a good chance that temperatures were low or uneven. I’ll look up what you mention and will be more careful next time, and see if I can avoid it happening.
It did go through gel. The non-streaky parts of the bar are almost translucent.

 

[Vicki C]

I've had an (overly) generous sodium lactate addition that can be mistaken for soda ash too.

Oh boy. Went back to look at my notes. I recently changed my process and realized I had more than double the amount of SL than I needed. I’m pretty sure that this is the cause. Hopefully no harmful effects - do you think, when this happened to you, that the bars were ok other than being overly hard?

 

[ResolvableOwl]

Hardness was not an issue (but alas, they were EVOO castiles, where hardness is relative anyway). They just looked like as if glycerin rivers, stearic spots, soda ash, and salt brine allied to crumble apart the soap gel into chalk.

ETA: I remembered that I would still have to have a piece of it floating around somewhere …
Stupid me has forgotten to take notes how much lactate I had added back then . I vaguely remember it might have been around 3%TOW lactic acid (80% purity, plus the extra NaOH), which is equivalent to 5%TOW of the typical 60% sodium lactate stock solution.

Freshly cutting through the bar, it turns out that the interior is much smoother than I had remembered. Even a bit shiny, and still comparatively easy to cut (200 days into cure). The most troublesome part is just a thick soda ash fur all over the surface. Did the grainy internal texture regress over time?
Now I'm super curious if your bars happen to overcome this chalky texture over the months .

 

[Vicki C]

Hardness was not an issue (but alas, they were EVOO castiles, where hardness is relative anyway). They just looked like as if glycerin rivers, stearic spots, soda ash, and salt brine allied to crumble apart the soap gel into chalk.

ETA: I remembered that I would still have to have a piece of it floating around somewhere …
Stupid me has forgotten to take notes how much lactate I had added back then . I vaguely remember it might have been around 3%TOW lactic acid (80% purity, plus the extra NaOH), which is equivalent to 5%TOW of the typical 60% sodium lactate stock solution.
View attachment 60884
Freshly cutting through the bar, it turns out that the interior is much smoother than I had remembered. Even a bit shiny, and still comparatively easy to cut (200 days into cure). The most troublesome part is just a thick soda ash fur all over the surface. Did the grainy internal texture regress over time?
Now I'm super curious if your bars happen to overcome this chalky texture over the months .

The funny thing is they are not really chalky or crumbly just have those (salty?) streaks. Since they are for a special order and not for me I am hoping I won’t need to remake them, but will if necessary.

 

[ResolvableOwl]

if necessary.

Do you estimate that the addressee would worry about such ashy/salty effect colour shenanigans? Or is it rather just your healthy perfectionsim that keeps you from just accepting the bars as-is?