Soaping Troubles - Soft bars, even with multiple recipes?

[brianbutts123]

Hello, I am a semi-new soaper, having made approx 10-12 batches of soap, totaling maybe 25lbs of soap. Different recipes, different additives, different scents. The first many batches went very smoothly, hard bars, nice scents, etc, no trouble at all...

But, of course, as soon as we start thinking about selling to friends and trying to make a little money on it, the trouble begins. We recently made a huge order of supplies and have made now 3 batches of soap about 2-3lbs each. First was a facial bar, 2nd a lavendar soap, 3rd a lemon-mint soap. Granted some of the troubles I've encountered have been because of adding the challenge of colorants and difficult layering, but aside from those all 3 batches have been very soft bars, about like a semi-ripe avocado. The facial bar sat in the wooden mold for 2 days, then has been out for almost a week now, still soft, very soft. The lavender and lemon-mint batches were in the mold for 2 days, out for 1 day now, not as soft as the facial bar, but still soft. Here are my recipes...

Facial Bar -
sweet almond - 157g
Coconut - 197g
grapeseed - 247g
Palm - 159g
Shea - 49g
olive - 119g

lye = 134.7g
water = 3x lye = 404g
No essential oils
add 1oz sea clay and .5 oz bentonite clay at trace

Lavender -
sweet almond - 170g
coconut = 454g
avocado = 160g
grapeseed = 113g
jojoba = 57g
palm = 143g
olive = 87g

lye = 169.5g
water = 2x lye = 339g
add 1/2 tsp salt to lye/water mixture
2 oz Bulk Apothecary Lavender essential oil at trace


Lemon-Mint
Almond = 174g
coconut = 454g
avocado = 162g
grapeseed =110g
palm =155g
olive = 92g
jojoba = 50g

Lye = 171g
water = 2x lye = 343g
add 2 oz lemon essential oil, .5 oz mint essential oil at trace


So again, all 3 recipes are producing soft soap bars after around 1 week since production. The only difference between these soft batches and the successful batches we've made in the past is a few more oils and 76 DEGREE coconut oil instead of the 96 or whatever the other one is. Could this be causing soft bars?

As you can see, I even added salt to one batch because I have read that it should make harder bars, but it has not seemed to help.. We've been plugging our recipes into soap calculators and all of them say that these would be making mid-range hardness of bars, but these are definitely soft. I would love any help, insight from anyone as this is concerning us. Thank you much, we love soapmaking!

 

[lsg]

I ran the first recipe through Soapcalc and it shows that for a 5% superfat you added too much lye and too much water. I suggest you run all of your recipes through Soapcalc. I run every recipe through Soapcalc before making it.

 

[brianbutts123]

Thanks for the input! I actually did run it through SoapCalc, but didn't get the final lye amount and water amount from SoapCalc, because I did those calculations on my own, based on saponification values given on SoapCalc. I was only 6g off on Lye (possibly from rounding), and 20g on water with a 3:1 water:lye ratio - that amounts to a pinch of lye and a mere 1.3 Tbs water too much..

Should it make THAT much of a difference?

 

[cmzaha]

I would have to wonder why you are using 38% coconut oil with only a 5% superfat. With a cleansing number of 26 you may not have a lot of happy customers. I just had a customer at my booth complaining a soap she bought, not from me, left her skin extremely dry and I am betting it was the amount of coconut or pko used. I am sorry but 10-12 batches of soap is certainly not enough experience to start selling, even to friends. You need months to test soaps before selling to know how they react on the body and how long the self life of your soap will be. Many soapmakers spend a year perfecting their recipes before selling. With the high grapeseed in your facial bar the chance of rancidity is high, since grapeseed has a short shelf life. Also keep in mind grapeseed is an astringent oil so not much point in using it with shea and sao. In my opinion you cancel out the properties of the shea and sao. JMO
Recipe #1 had a water as percent of oils at 43.5% (approx) That is a lot of liquid and would answer why that soap is soft. It will take weeks to dry out and harden up. #2 I am not really sure why it has stayed soft unless you did not trace it well. If poured when just emulisified it will take long to set up.
I would really suggest you step back take your time and save the expensive ingredients such as jojoba after you have perfected your soaps.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

I'm with Carolyn Z on this one - if you're looking to sell, it should be from a recipe that you can do almost blindfolded. If you're going to market with something totally untested, then that can be a scary thing indeed.

Lecture over, I would look at lowering the CO down to a max of 20% and putting the difference in to the Palm. I would suggest splitting the difference between the OO and the Palm, but then if you aim to have about 40% solid oils or more, it helps a lot.

Have you also thought of using Sodium Lactate at all?

 

[jade-15]

How old is your lye, and how is it stored? It does absorb moisture from the air so if you've been using the same container for a while, it might be worthing opening a new container and trying soap with that. Over summer here it was quite humid and I had to open up a new bottle (which I then poured into a clipseal bag, and very carefully pus h the air out before sealing it after each use).

 

[DeeAnna]

"...that amounts to a pinch of lye..."

That "pinch" amounts to changing your superfat by about 5%. So, yeah, it's important. And, yeah, it could be the reason why your recipe is soft.

Check your scale for accuracy as well.

 

[Sinful7]

You will be amazed at how much of a difference a tiny error measuring can make. I am overly cautious on my measurements.

 

[FlybyStardancer]

I was only 6g off on Lye (possibly from rounding), and 20g on water with a 3:1 water:lye ratio - that amounts to a pinch of lye and a mere 1.3 Tbs water too much..

On one recipe I was using to make gift soaps yesterday, my superfat percentage was changing about a percentage point per gram of lye! Luckily for me my little error only bumped my superfat from 5% to 8%. So yes, tiny mis-measurements can add up to big changes! And rounding errors can add up! Me, I try to minimize the calculations I do and let programs that can hold many more digits than I do the calculating for me. Whether that's using a graphing calculator so I can put the whole equation in at once, or use a lye calculator created specifically to calculate lye amounts.

 

[seven]

your 1st recipe is soft to begin with, and with 3:1 (water:lye) that's sure is going to make a soft soap. why did you choose to have 3 times water to begin with?

 

[brianbutts123]

Thank you everyone for your comments, and I need to clarify - we are THINKING of selling... hence the state of perfecting recipes and such right now. I obviously know that I have a lot to learn and I really appreciate all the feedback. To answer some questions...

I've always used a 3:1 water:lye ratio in the past and it has done really well - super hard bars. But, I've also only used a few kitchen-available oils in the past, and after a big order of oils like almond, avocado, grapeseed, palm, etc, I need to learn their properties better. I assume I picked up the 3:1 ratio thing along the way somewhere, but after research on THIS site, it seems that's not very common, so I have since reduced to 2:1 ratio in the most recent 2 batches.

I have tried to search anywhere for a "basic" soap recipe that people like to use, but haven't been able to find anything. I'd love not only the recipe, but the reasoning behind each amount of oil. Or, if not that, just a resource that I can find all that information.

I will DEFINITELY be more careful with measurements, as I didn't realize it was that big of a difference with a pinch of this or that. Like I said, since the beginning, I have had zero issues, so I had assumed everything I was doing was working. Also, my lye is brand new from Essential Depot.

Finally, I have also never used some of these oils before, so I know I have some learning to do - mainly learning about anything other than the kitchen-available coconut, olive, vegetable, safflower, lard, etc that I've been experimenting with in the past. Colors (pigment powders) are another area I'm new at, as I don't feel a need AT ALL for colors, because it's just the principle that I have - if it's not needed for benefit of the product (soap, moisturizer, etc) then why have it? Colors fall into that category for me, but they definitely make the bars look much more pretty.


Again, thank you all for your feedback. I am grateful to partake in a skill/hobby that most of Americans have no idea about, and I enjoy getting back to "grassroots" and learning these life-skills. So I appreciate all of you who are masters at this.

I will post pics next, just so you can share my joy, even if they're not perfect.

 

[lsg]

I think you will find Kathy Millers website filled with good info. and good recipes. As always, I advise running any recipe through a lye calculator before using.

http://millersoap.com/

I can give you a basic recipe I use sometimes. I am always experimenting with oil combinations and percentages. Some people find that 30% coconut oil may be too cleansing. If you are one of those people, just reduce the coconut oil and add that percentage to any of the other oils except Castor. Adding too much Castor can lead to soft and slimy feeling soap.

30% coconut oil
5% Castor oil
10% palm
30% rice bran oil
25% shea butter

 

[brianbutts123]

Thanks for the recipe!

I have recently made a hot process soap using some of the tips you guys have left on this thread, but still getting a soft bar, so I'm not sure what's going wrong. But, they're hardening up every week, so I assume maybe I'm just being impatient.

Also, does anyone have and preference/issues with using extracts in soaps? I've seen recipes with stuff like coconut extract, mango extract, etc. I have heard that vanilla extract won't do much, but have you guys found any different results?

 

[shunt2011]

You shouldn't use extract in your soaping. 1. they contain alcohol and could cause your soap to seize and 2 use only skin safe fragrances. If you are still not satisified with the hardness of your soap you can add salt to the water as well as adding sodium lactate will also help make a harder bar.

 

[judymoody]

If your recipe contains at least 50% hard fats and the balance in liquid at room temperature oils, that should be sufficient to get you a nice hard bar. You might want to switch back to the 92 degree coconut oil if you had better results with it.

Are you gelling your soap? Ungelled soap is much softer initially and requires more time in the mold before cutting.

 

[brianbutts123]

Judymoody - No I have never gelled my soaps before. Just looked up some information and it was the first time I'd heard of this. I have done hot process before, but not anything like CPOP before. Do you recommend it?

 

[cmzaha]

Thanks for the recipe!

I have recently made a hot process soap using some of the tips you guys have left on this thread, but still getting a soft bar, so I'm not sure what's going wrong. But, they're hardening up every week, so I assume maybe I'm just being impatient.

Also, does anyone have and preference/issues with using extracts in soaps? I've seen recipes with stuff like coconut extract, mango extract, etc. I have heard that vanilla extract won't do much, but have you guys found any different results?

I think what you are seeing for extracts are extracts for cosmetics, some are in liquid form and some in powdered form. These are not the same as cooking extracts

 

[lrpolillo]

So my stick blender went missing yesterday so I tried using my other mixer and everyone is right. You HAVE to use a stick blender. Thank god for amazon because my new one will be here tomorrow so I can try a new different recipe. So still can’t wait to cut the soap I made yesterday it’s just going to take longer to get to the point that I can cut it!!! Also if you are worried about shelf life (I think I read something about shelf life) avacado oil has a good shelf life!

 

[Steve85569]

Hard soap recipe: Lard, Tallow, palm oils with smaller amounts of coconut, olive, rice bran, grapeseed etc with just a touch of castor for effect.
I also split water and use reacted vinegar ( sodium acetate hardens soap) and aloe vera juice ( the sugar adds lather).

A good rule of thumb is that liquid oils at room temperature make soft (er) soap than solid oils at room temperature.