Soapers Not Using Chelators.

[Peachy Clean Soap]

I was using citric acid in my soaps for chelating properties and then learned from a potential customer that some citric acid is made from corn and that they were allergic to corn :O I've looked at lots of other local soapmakers and I have not noticed any of them using any kind of chelator or antioxidant in their ingredients. Maybe they aren't listing them. Idk... In the last 12 years that we've been soaping, only a handful of batches have DOS and most recently just about all the soap I made with hemp oil DOS'd. I have one bar from the first CP batch in our bathroom and it definitely has DOS but it doesn't smell. Just very orange. I have buckets of soap scraps/ends from all the batches of soap I've made (and it's extensive) that I rummage through every few months to check out. My youngest son also likes to carve the soap up to occupy himself when I'm soaping.

I definitely loved the difference of the sudsing and less soap scum in the shower. We recently installed a water softener system and there hasn't been any soap scum with the non-citric acid soaps. I still use citric acid in my shave soap because the lather is just awesome. The aloe I was using in some batches also has citric acid and sodium gluctonate in it.

Thats interesting the hemp oil soaps had more DOS.

 

[Mobjack Bay]

I was using citric acid in my soaps for chelating properties and then learned from a potential customer that some citric acid is made from corn and that they were allergic to corn :O

According to the definitive source, Wikipedia, a mold (Aspergillus niger) transforms corn sugars to calcium citrate, which is then converted to citric acid using sulfuric acid. Corn plants and molds are not creating the elemental carbon, oxygen and hydrogen that are the components of a citric acid molecule. By extension, I think it’s like saying they wouldn’t be able to eat meat from an animal that was fed corn, or breathe air near a corn field.

 

[bookworm]

i have been observing all the contributions with lots of interest. Clearly need to start researching this.
When I moved many years ago to Australia, I was surprised that most of my new friends used liquid soap and not bars. They cited the reason as bar soap causing soap scum and a pain to clean glass shower doors. I read then, that commercial soaps contain talc which resulted in the scum.

But after experiencing soap scum with some of my own bars, I began to wonder. I’m so glad to read up on your experiences and will look into this.

The surprising thing was the dismissive manner of my soaping class instructor, who did not acknowledge the existence of soap scum and that it was caused by soap. She said that the streaks on the shower doors was most likely caused by body oils.

 

[Peachy Clean Soap]

i have been observing all the contributions with lots of interest. Clearly need to start researching this.
When I moved many years ago to Australia, I was surprised that most of my new friends used liquid soap and not bars. They cited the reason as bar soap causing soap scum and a pain to clean glass shower doors. I read then, that commercial soaps contain talc which resulted in the scum.

But after experiencing soap scum with some of my own bars, I began to wonder. I’m so glad to read up on your experiences and will look into this.

The surprising thing was the dismissive manner of my soaping class instructor, who did not acknowledge the existence of soap scum and that it was caused by soap. She said that the streaks on the shower doors was most likely caused by body oils.

Oh goodness.

 

[Peachy Clean Soap]

According to the definitive source, Wikipedia, a mold (Aspergillus niger) transforms corn sugars to calcium citrate, which is then converted to citric acid using sulfuric acid. Corn plants and molds are not creating the elemental carbon, oxygen and hydrogen that are the components of a citric acid molecule. By extension, I think it’s like saying they wouldn’t be able to eat meat from an animal that was fed corn, or breathe air near a corn field.

Good point's & informative.

 

[DeeAnna]

....most of my new friends used liquid soap and not bars. They cited the reason as bar soap causing soap scum and a pain to clean glass shower doors. I read then, that commercial soaps contain talc which resulted in the scum....

Commercial body washes are blends of synthetic detergents (syndets), not a true lye-based soap. Syndets don't form soap scum when mixed with hard water minerals. That's why the shower door stays cleaner.

If there is talc or other powders in a lye-based soap, the powder can stick to the soap scum and build up, which would make the soap scum deposits more obvious. But it's not the talc that creates the scum in the first place -- it's the soap that does that.

...The surprising thing was the dismissive manner of my soaping class instructor, who did not acknowledge the existence of soap scum and that it was caused by soap. She said that the streaks on the shower doors was most likely caused by body oils.

That's unfortunate. The production of soap scum is just normal chemical behavior of soap. I'd think a good instructor would want to educate their students about this fact, not sweep something that's common knowledge under the rug.

 

[SideDoorSoaps]

According to the definitive source, Wikipedia, a mold (Aspergillus niger) transforms corn sugars to calcium citrate, which is then converted to citric acid using sulfuric acid. Corn plants and molds are not creating the elemental carbon, oxygen and hydrogen that are the components of a citric acid molecule. By extension, I think it’s like saying they wouldn’t be able to eat meat from an animal that was fed corn, or breathe air near a corn field.

I'm not sure it's as sensitive as that however i did come across this article a couple years ago about corn allergies. It was very interesting and I like how it references soap making

 

[paradisi]

According to the definitive source, Wikipedia, a mold (Aspergillus niger) transforms corn sugars to calcium citrate, which is then converted to citric acid using sulfuric acid. Corn plants and molds are not creating the elemental carbon, oxygen and hydrogen that are the components of a citric acid molecule. By extension, I think it’s like saying they wouldn’t be able to eat meat from an animal that was fed corn, or breathe air near a corn field.

I don't know about allergenic effects, but when I first ate feedlot beef (corn fed) after being raised on wild game and our own grass fed beef, it tasted sweet and corn-bready. So some aspect does make it through. (Think about the lengths gourmets go to, feeding animals stuff like juniper berries...).

As to citric acid being affected, it too has different odors depending on source. Does that mean it's enough to trigger allergies? I have no idea.

 

[Bubble Agent]

...my soaping class instructor, who did not acknowledge the existence of soap scum and that it was caused by soap. She said that the streaks on the shower doors was most likely caused by body oils.

Well, there are those who still believe "the earth is flat", so I am starting to get to a point of not getting terribly surprized when someone can still be so adamant about denying certain things. Even though science itself have gone above and beyond documenting a cause-and-effect relationship between events or variables, wether is it a chelator or whatever the topic is.

(When a soap with a chelator leaves way less (if any, depending of hard/soft water) soap scum - does that mean that the body oils suddenly cease to exist when a human uses the soap?
Like the body says; uh-oh, I smell sum chelator here, I`ll better not leave soap scum or someone may know I am here... )

 

[ghoshsmita]

I didn't use any chelators for the first 40 batches of soap I made. I went on vacation down to the Outer Banks and brought a bunch of soap for everyone to use. To my horror, most if not all of the soap behaved so differently in this beach house then it did in my Long Island shower. It was gooey and gross after it sat in the sink and/or shower. If I ever plan on selling my soap I would be doing a disservice to future customers if I did not account for different water situations throughout the country. I use .5% Food Grade Sodium Gluconate and .5% Food Grade Tetrasodium EDTA in my last few batches. I do understand the issue with throwing such "chemically" sounding ingredients on your label but if I bought soap and it turned to a gooey mess I would be pretty upset that the soapmaker was not knowledgeable enough to account for all different types of water situations.

I use Sodium Glauconate too & it really has made a difference. Sodium Glauconate is natural too so I don't stress over additives. My bathtub is waaay cleaner since I started using it. Some how the soap also leaves the skin softer and silkier after I started using it.

 

[SideDoorSoaps]

Thats interesting the hemp oil soaps had more DOS.

It is very interesting. I’m not sure why other than the local source that produces it may have unknown contaminants or not as long shelf life - it was witching a few months of purchase that I used it. And it was not cheap!

 

[Peachy Clean Soap]

It is very interesting. I’m not sure why other than the local source that produces it may have unknown contaminants or not as long shelf life - it was witching a few months of purchase that I used it. And it was not cheap!

I'd venture to guess it has a short shelf life, yes its costly.

 

[DeeAnna]

Hemp, grapeseed, corn, conventional soybean, conventional safflower, and other fats high in polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFAs) will oxidize and go rancid more quickly than fats lower in these fatty acids.

The same is also true for soap made with a high percentage of these polyunsaturated fats. Soap made with mostly monounsaturated and saturated fatty acids typically has a longer shelf life, all other things being equal. If you want to use a high percentage of polyunsaturated fats in your soap, it might be wise to also use a chelator and antioxidant. You might also consider storing this type of soap in the refrigerator.

There are several single oil soap trials on the internet that are worth checking out. Alchemy and Ashes, The Curious Soapmaker, and Zen Soaps are three I know of.

Many people (including me) use a rule of thumb to keep the combined linoleic acid and linolenic acid content below about 15% in our soap as a way to minimize how easily the soap goes rancid. I don't know of any research that supports this 15% rule of thumb, but it seems to be effective.

 

[Peachy Clean Soap]

I never had a person question the additives and not buy a bar of soap because of my additives in all my years of selling. Maybe I was just lucky.

Thats valuable info. cause many may not add all ingredients do to fear of the soap looking not "All Natural" another rabbit-hole

 

[Peachy Clean Soap]

Hemp, grapeseed, corn, conventional soybean, conventional safflower, and other fats high in polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFAs) will oxidize and go rancid more quickly than fats lower in these fatty acids.

The same is also true for soap made with a high percentage of these polyunsaturated fats. Soap made with mostly monounsaturated and saturated fatty acids typically has a longer shelf life, all other things being equal. If you want to use a high percentage of polyunsaturated fats in your soap, it might be wise to also use a chelator and antioxidant. You might also consider storing this type of soap in the refrigerator.

There are several single oil soap trials on the internet that are worth checking out. Alchemy and Ashes, The Curious Soapmaker, and Zen Soaps are three I know of.

Many people (including me) use a rule of thumb to keep the combined linoleic acid and linolenic acid content below about 15% in our soap as a way to minimize how easily the soap goes rancid. I don't know of any research that supports this 15% rule of thumb, but it seems to be effective.

"This Is Great Info" gonna SS & print so I'll have it.

 

[Peachy Clean Soap]

Thank you. Winning over my husband was tough...lifetime Dial user...but now he is one of my testers and gives me really good feedback. And I should perhaps mention, only because I was thinking about it while I was just in the shower, that I have a metal shower caddy. It's chrome I think, bought it quite a few years ago and I haven't had any issues with my soap and there are at least three bars on it.

Exactly. One of the questions I always get it is "What is Sodium Lactate? I thought your soap was homemade." I then explain that it is a liquid salt that helps to harden the soap to make it easier to unmold.



Mine is: Ingredients: Olive Oil, Distilled Water, Coconut Oil, Palm Oil (RSPO), Cocoa Butter, Shea Butter, Sodium Hydroxide, Castor Oil, Sodium Lactate and Kaolin Clay. May contain fragrance and colorants.

I went with the above because 1) I don't always add scent or color to my soaps, but I do add everything else. 2) It's a lot cheaper and less time consuming to print a pack of 750 labels than it is to have to constantly have to constantly edit them and then print out a couple of sheets.

Now I will have to make new labels for my Cranberry Salsa because I put Cranberry Seeds on it.

I like your label' its shortened but precise.

 

[Peachy Clean Soap]

I'm gonna add this new found soap info here' kinda apply's to our topic:
Rancid Lard Accelerates Soap Batter:
I joined our forum October soap challenge' & my soap would accelerate right after adding the lye to fats & oils & quite fast' I thought my saturated & unsaturated fats were off so I readjusted my soap formula adding more unsaturated fats, this didnt help, I thought must be the water I readjusted water ratio from 37% to 34% then again to 33%, this didn't help, I thought must be the castor oil reduced that from 5.50% to 1%, yet again didn't help! ok by this time I'm getting really frustrated then I thought maybe it's the sodium lactate so didn't add that & still didn't help. after 4 batches of soap I couldn't think of what else to do. I suddenly had a light bulb moment! breakthrough if you will!!! of what could be causing soap to accelerate. I had just put remaining Lard into a smaller container saving space & jotted down the expiration date on the new lard container so i'd know when its out of code' I remember thinking oh the expiration is up next month on the 20th I better use it up!!. Well the lard was already rancid though it looked perfect the scent was off in that it had a "slight chemical smell" not bad but I could detect it, so putting two & two together I realized the " lard must be rancid" & this is causing my soap batter to accelerate. the soap batter had a gel like gladness in texture & soap color changed from the off whiteish to a yellow golden color, it also morphed the micas colors for instance the black mica turned green grayish, also the scent was off it changed the EO/ FO which was detected when I cut the soap. So The Just Of My Experience Is' ( Rancid Lard ) will accelerate your soap.

Ive tossed out 3 batches' the 4th will be thrown out today' Its so pretty I wanted to keep it just a extra day, though their's no DOS on soap' it's coming cause rancid lard makes rancid soap & thats just nasty contaminated germ fest that will spread to your other soap's like cancer.

Final Thought ( Rancid Lard Will Accelerate Your Soap Batter)

 

[ResolvableOwl]

Ive tossed out 3 batches' the 4th will be thrown out today'

Zany's faint.gif moment

But what else to do? Rancid oils make rancid soap.

 

[Mobjack Bay]

I don't know about allergenic effects, but when I first ate feedlot beef (corn fed) after being raised on wild game and our own grass fed beef, it tasted sweet and corn-bready. So some aspect does make it through. (Think about the lengths gourmets go to, feeding animals stuff like juniper berries...).

As to citric acid being affected, it too has different odors depending on source. Does that mean it's enough to trigger allergies? I have no idea.

I have to admit to not being an A student in cell physiology and biochemistry, so I went a bit down the rabbit hole and learned that processing practices, in particular, add a high level of uncertainty when it comes to avoiding corn proteins. According to this source, corn allergies are rare, but I also learned that corn-derived proteins may be found in caramel, malt, sorbitol, xanthan gum, other foods and personal care products, like shampoo and toothpaste. I’m glad I don’t have a corn allergy.

 

[Peachy Clean Soap]

Zany's faint.gif moment

But what else to do? Rancid oils make rancid soap.

Yes... Oh my goodness. I searched everywhere if Rancid Lard could accelerate soap recipe? couldn't find any information confirming my speculation.
After I purchased new lard & made a new batch of soap w/ last recipe, I confirmed my speculation, sadly it was a costly lesson I wont soon forget. But the soap recipe was fluid ' almost to much' w/ ample time to swirl tell my heart was content. . I hope I can see a Butterfly in the swirl.