Soap Scores

[IrishLass]

*MODS* Can someone chop the portion of this thread out starting with jenny1271's post and move it to a new thread, please? I think it deserves to not be in the middle of this, and it does need to be addressed.

Hi Susie- I do see your point, although I think it might be better if I go into the title of the thread to include something about it at the tail end instead, since most of Jenny's post in this thread has much to do with her opening question, and the tail end of it intertwines intimately throughout it.

Do you think this might be soothing (though I understand not necessarily healing) for someone who has eczema.

Jenny- if I understand your above comment correctly, you understand that soap will not cure/heal eczema, but instead you just want to know if such a soap as what you posted a link to will not cause further irritation to it based on the conditioning and creaminess numbers?

That's a tough one to answer. As Hazel, Carol and Susie pointed out, so much depends on the individual person and what their sensitivities might be. What helps to soothe one might actually irritate another. Definitely inquire as to what the child is allergic/sensitive to before you begin.

If it were me, I would use Susie's recipe as a starting point (if the child is not sensitive to any of the ingredients, that is). Lard makes a wonderfully mild, creamy and conditioning soap. I would go with her recipe instead of the one with the really high cocoa butter because too much cocoa butter has been known to cause brittle, draggy soap. I personally would never use more than 30%, depending on my other oils, but that's just me.

I've actually made a recipe similar to yours, but only I used 65% beef tallow, 23% castor oil, and 12% olive oil instead. It made a really nice animal-based Castile-type of sorts that was nice and hard and velvety-feeling instead of sticky in spite of the high castor, because of the high tallow amount.

As has been said already- please don't get too hooked on the SoapCalc qualities numbers. They are not the 'be-all/end-all'. The best thing you can do is make your soap, cure it, test it out, and then compare the results against the given numbers. Only then will the numbers on SoapCalc be of any help to you. For example- is the finished soap too drying? Then tweak your oil amounts for your next batch to lower the cleansing number and/or increase the conditioning number, etc.... We can theorize about the numbers all day, but until you have that first batch made and cured and have used it, you really won't know how those numbers translate over to your cured soap.

Don't make any large batches at first. Just make a 1 lb. batch to start, cure it and test it out, or make a couple of small 1 lb. batches of different formulas to compare to each other.


IrishLass

 

[jenny1271]

Soap Scores, Eczema, Go-To-Gentle Recipe

Thank you everyone, Hazel, Susie, IrishLass, DeeAnna, and everyone, including Top of Hill Murray. Honestly, I think I'm starting to see what you mean about the numbers not telling the whole story. I mean, when I read your responses and your recipe suggestions, I can see that it would be a mistake to not try recipes that have numbers different from what I think I want, because the process is so complex, there are combination salts created, etc. I want to get to where I have a go-to recipe that I trust to be a good experience for the people who try my soaps. I don't want to give people a soap that would make my own arms itch. I want people to feel soothed and uplifted by my soaps, and I understand that's a lot to ask of a soap, but to be honest, it's got a lot more potential than my legal briefs had. I've read a lot from a lot of people about the awesomeness of lard soaps.

So, basically, I just want you to know, I'm going to follow your advice. It means a lot to me that you took the time to give it. I don't have a lot of time to make my soaps, so it really helps me a lot for you to steer me clear of the mistakes that will drain me of energy and keep me from getting to where I need to be. I really love thinking about and talking about soaps. And, it just realigns my whole life to have something that I'm doing that makes me feel this intrigued and excited again. So, what I'm realizing is that the numbers don't tell the whole story, they could in fact steer me away from some really great recipe ideas, and that I need to trust experience over mathematics. Still, I'm gonna be honest, there is never going to be a time when I will try a new recipe without running the numbers first. At least, I can't imagine that, but maybe I'm wrong about that too.

Anyway, thanks again. If you have a recipe that you don't mind sharing and that you think would be good as my "go-to" gentle, enriching soap, please do share. My sincere appreciation!

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

I think a new thread for recipes would be a good idea. But first, do a forum search for things like 'lard recipe' or 'basic recipe' and so on to see some of the wider discussions about the recipes

 

[ngian]

...
like how they really veer off into unreality by making no distinction between completely different soaps like sodium oleate and linoleate.
.....
One of the most soluble soaps -- even though it creates gel a.k.a. slime instead of cleaning well -- is sodium oleate.
...
What makes it even more obvious is that sodium linoleate makes mush in contact with water and obviously creates short lived soap. In fact, even though it doesn't get included in "cleaning" and "bubbly," experimenters with single oil soaps have found that linoleic oils like sunflower make rather soluble soap that lathers well.

Where someone can find/read more info upon the above matters? I'm really interested in understanding what each fatty acid actually give to the properties of a soap as lately I've read that Linoleic and Linolenic are acids that are not so much in favor to add them in our soaps.
It all started when I read about HO Sunflower as it has high oleic and low on the other two mentioned above, and makes it somehow better than olive olive.

I really need to know if there are any sources in obtaining more info.

Thank you in advance.

Nikos

 

[topofmurrayhill]

Where someone can find/read more info upon the above matters? I'm really interested in understanding what each fatty acid actually give to the properties of a soap as lately I've read that Linoleic and Linolenic are acids that are not so much in favor to add them in our soaps.
It all started when I read about HO Sunflower as it has high oleic and low on the other two mentioned above, and makes it somehow better than olive olive.

I really need to know if there are any sources in obtaining more info.

Thank you in advance.

Nikos

There is very little reference information about this. It depends on your own experimentation. The craft community hasn't been making much progress because it is more or less stuck in its beliefs, with the help of Soapcalc. A good start would be to assume that the conditioning number in Soapcalc is completely wrong and unhelpful. If you want mild soap or a great skin feel, the conditioning number won't lead you in the right direction except by accident.

Another thing is that's it's irrelevant what specific oils you use. They are usually not contributing anything useful except fatty acids. When you hear the word "luxury oil," it means that the oil is expensive and often comes from a place where people go on vacation. Coconut oil would be a luxury oil if it wasn't cheap, so we turn to babassu oil. Forget about hearing that someone "loves" an oil. Oils don't make soap better apart from their contribution to the overall fatty acid composition of the recipe.

This emotional or imaginary thinking goes into a lot of recipe formulation, but some luxury oils are helpful. Shea or cocoa butter is extremely useful, but you can figure out the real reason for that in the fatty acid composition. A few of the cheapest oils can do the same thing, but Soapcalc doesn't tell you that it works.

 

[dixiedragon]

I think TopofMurrayHill makes a lot of good points.

Crafters do a lot emotional/wishful thinking, b/c generally they get started in a craft because it appeals to them on some kind of emotional level.

Plus, a lot of what moves sales is "label appeal". Soap with olive oil, coconut oil and shea butter sounds better than soap that is 100% lard.

I present this entry from www.millersoap.com:
http://www.millersoap.com/soapertypes.html

[SIZE=-1]

[SIZE=-1]I really think that Rachael from the Latherings Forum should write her own soapmaking book. It would make for a delightful read and she has tried lots of innovative things in her soapmaking with mixed results. I admire her spirit of adventure and experimentation. When I asked her why she had a prejudice against palm oil, this was her response. She has given her permission for me to share it. I hooted more than once while reading it and hope you'll enjoy it as well. Which type of soaper are you? ;-)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]Subject: Why palm means so little to me.[/SIZE]Date: 12/13 9:51 PMFrom: RachaelThis has been my observation of my fellow soapers. I think that there are a few different types of soapers. They tend to focus on a unique area and strive to fill that need in themselves. There is some overlap of major interest, but most people focus on a given area ...some concentric circles of interest form around the primary one and the rest become secondary. Along with that, comes a disdain for "the rest". It might help to describe my fondness for plastic buckets of canola oil from Costco and not wanting anything to do with the fad of palm oil, and my purchase of fifty dollar fo's to scent 2 batches of soap!--Yes, I have done that!
The Naturalists: EO's [SIZE=-1](essential oils)[/SIZE], not FO's [SIZE=-1](fragrance oils)[/SIZE], and unscented too. No pigments that aren't totally from nature. No sandalwood 'cuz it's endangered, a lot of hemp, recycled paper wrapper with natural inks. These guys equate a shower with their soap with running naked through the hot, dank, primordial jungle of our distant ancestors.
The Veggies: No animal fats. No animal stearic acid. No beeswax. No milk. A lot of guilt with palmitic acid use even. No musk. Hippy soap.
The Ranchers: Tallow and lard. "Why else did God put cows on the planet?"
The Expense Artists: Hundreds invested in box molds and high tensile strength wire cutters and all the fad oils and fats. Well stocked shelves bulging with packages of dyes and pigments, additives and the like. They usually only make one batch a week.
The Castile Makers: Often confused with the Stir Crazy (see below). They tend toward three-day traces and don't buy any other oils but olive. Sometimes one will encounter a lax one who will include some cocoa butter to speed trace and cut the smell level some.
The Oil Investors: Emu oil, shea butter, neem, cocoa butter, fractionated coconut oil.
The Additive Type: Soap without the stuff falling out of it, is no fun. Often they march through the yard, basket in hand, looking for likely victims. The mortar and pestle is their icon.
The Hard Bar People: They probably would love to use tallow, but it isn't in fashion... so they buy palm.
The Stir Crazy:[SIZE=+1][/SIZE]Easy to spot because of the really well developed dominant arm and shoulder. Often these are the Castile Makers. Sometimes they just tend toward the 80% oils to 20% fats. They just love to stir soap. For days and days 'til they get a trace. Kind of a well earned reward.
The Ten-Minute Tracers: "Give me a blender, damit!" The recipe sucks if the owner can't get the bucket of oils to trace in ten minutes or less.
No Blenders Allowed: Self explanatory. Some people hate the use of blenders. I think it just represents change, and they don't do change well.
The Scenters: Soap is a vehicle for scent. A rather obsessive bunch, they tend to sniff alot of things. Very nose governed.
The Colorists:[SIZE=+1][/SIZE]Color is everything to them. Whorls, waves, swirls, marbleizing, blotches, with powdered clays, dyes, spices, herbs, barks and woods, flowers, fruits and veggies, and colored oils.
The Latherists:[SIZE=+1][/SIZE]If you run your finger over it twice and it doesn't immediately start to froth, it needs more coconut, palm kernel, or castor oil. If it didn't dry skin out, their soap would be 100% coconut.
The Namers: When the booth down the hall has Purple Passion Pear, Stud Bubbles and Cleopatra ... and you have Pear, Bay Rum, and Honey-Almond, you know you have run into a Namer.
Group Soapers: They gather in the evening, in the kitchens and basements of our country (and others as well). The group leaders all get the 'funny looks' from neighbors, and no wonder ... when the designated lye stirrer is on the back porch stirring a steaming mixture, and the rest of the crew is gathering over a big pot of something. Chanting is optional.

[/SIZE]

 

[not_ally]

Dixie, that whole thread was really funny, although I admit I did not get to the end. Thanks for posting it. I have multiple soap personality disorder, apparently

 

[JayJay]

This thread is awesome. And I need to figure out a way to earmark it for later on in my soaping life when this will resonate more.

Hey Dixie, you should start a "which type are you" thread. I am dying to know what people would say about themselves.

EDIT-- when say awesome, I mean that it is packed with information.. I don't mean that the conflict part is awesome. Debates are often a good way to tease out some very important points. They are good as long as no one gets hurt in the process. And I hope that no one got hurt during the course of this information exchange.

 

[hmlove1218]

This thread is awesome. And I need to figure out a way to earmark it for later on in my soaping life when this will resonate more.

Hey Dixie, you should start a "which type are you" thread. I am dying to know what people would say about themselves.

I second this motion! Lol

 

[dixiedragon]

This thread is awesome. And I need to figure out a way to earmark it for later on in my soaping life when this will resonate more.

Hey Dixie, you should start a "which type are you" thread. I am dying to know what people would say about themselves.

EDIT-- when say awesome, I mean that it is packed with information.. I don't mean that the conflict part is awesome. Debates are often a good way to tease out some very important points. They are good as long as no one gets hurt in the process. And I hope that no one got hurt during the course of this information exchange.

I second this motion! Lol

Done! (BTW, that's my first multi quote. Look at that!)