Soap is crumbly and smells awful

[ninibug09]

Hello,

I recently used a Brambleberry basic soap recipe. I was trying to find a base that I could add to and this one came out perfectly. So, I tried it again but this time halved the recipe, subbed 1/2 of the water for frozen oat milk, and added small amounts of honey and turmeric (for color) at trace. I researched how to use both the honey and the turmeric and used the amounts that Brambleberry recommended. I soaped around 94 degrees, it traced pretty quickly. To prevent it from heating up too much, I placed it in the freezer for a few hours and then let it set overnight. I unmolded my soap the next day. It looked beautiful but as soon as I cut into it, I noticed some was pretty crumbly and it smelled like rotten eggs. I'm not sure where I went wrong. I am posting the original recipe (the one that went perfectly!) and the adjusted recipe (with the honey)

Original Recipe:
16 oz. Coconut Oil
16 oz. Palm Oil
16 oz. Olive Oil
2 oz. Castor Oil

13 oz. Water (this is discounted but the outcome was great)
7.4 oz. Lye

Adjusted Recipe:
8 oz. Coconut Oil
8 oz. Palm Oil
8 oz. Olive Oil
1 oz. Castor Oil

3.7 oz. Lye
3.25 oz. Water
3.25 oz. Frozen Oat Milk

Added 2 teaspoons Honey (recommended 1 tsp. per lb. loosened this with a little warm water)
Added 4 teaspoons Turmeric for color
Added .14 oz. Pure Honey Fragrance Oil

 

[Primrose]

Was the FO safe for use in CP soap?

 

[penelopejane]

I ran the recipe through soap calc and you are using a 3% SF and a 36% lye concentration. That is pretty high would lead to the quick trace.

94* is pretty cool for palm and coconut recipe but I don't think that would cause crumbliness - that is often from overheating but the amount of milk and honey you used shouldn't cause that. No need to freeze that recipe.

Did you do the split method for the milk? If not you might have burnt the milk.

 

[DeeAnna]

Soap can also have an odd powdery or crumbly texture if it is not allowed to warm up sufficiently during saponification. By soaping that cool and also putting the soap in the freezer, it's likely the soap did not get sufficiently warm enough.

On top of that, batch size has an effect on whether a soap can warm up much or not. By halving the recipe, the soap has more surface area compared to the volume. The 1/2 batch of soap will naturally stay cooler than the original full sized batch.

In the future, you will want to make sure it's not overly soft before you cut, although I concede that is sometimes hard to tell without actually cutting it. If I cut a bar or two and see the soap is too soft to cut well, I stop, and let the remaining loaf dry a bit longer until it's more like firm cheddar cheese and try again.

You can also gently heat the soap in the oven even after saponification is over and that may help a lot to firm the soap and improve the texture. https://classicbells.com/soap/cpopAfterTheFact.html

The only things that I can think of that would cause the odor are the fragrance oil and the oat milk.

 

[penelopejane]

Soap can also have an odd powdery or crumbly texture if it is not allowed to warm up sufficiently during saponification. By soaping that cool and also putting the soap in the freezer, it's likely the soap did not get sufficiently warm enough.
.

Thanks DeeAnna I didn’t know that.

 

[ninibug09]

Was the FO safe for use in CP soap?

The fragrance oil is made for cp soap use.

 

[IrishLass]

Re: the smell...... I wouldn't be too concerned at this point, because freshly cut soap can emit all kinds of weird smells depending on the ingredients. For example, milk soaps often emit an initial ammonia smell, and certain FOs can cause the soap to emit a smell very much like that of permanent wave solution for hair, etc.... The good news is that such initial smells are temporary- they eventually cure out over the course of a few days up to a few weeks.


IrishLass

Edited to add, I once made a soap with fresh eggs in it, and it had somewhat of a sulpher-type smell to it for a few days. It went completely away sometime during cure.

 

[ninibug09]

I ran the recipe through soap calc and you are using a 3% SF and a 36% lye concentration. That is pretty high would lead to the quick trace.

94* is pretty cool for palm and coconut recipe but I don't think that would cause crumbliness - that is often from overheating but the amount of milk and honey you used shouldn't cause that. No need to freeze that recipe.

Did you do the split method for the milk? If not you might have burnt the milk.

3% SF was recommended in the original Brambleberry recipe. It worked perfectly the 1st time (before batch with additives). I'm not sure what you mean by "the split method" for the milk.

Soap can also have an odd powdery or crumbly texture if it is not allowed to warm up sufficiently during saponification. By soaping that cool and also putting the soap in the freezer, it's likely the soap did not get sufficiently warm enough.

On top of that, batch size has an effect on whether a soap can warm up much or not. By halving the recipe, the soap has more surface area compared to the volume. The 1/2 batch of soap will naturally stay cooler than the original full sized batch.

In the future, you will want to make sure it's not overly soft before you cut, although I concede that is sometimes hard to tell without actually cutting it. If I cut a bar or two and see the soap is too soft to cut well, I stop, and let the remaining loaf dry a bit longer until it's more like firm cheddar cheese and try again.

You can also gently heat the soap in the oven even after saponification is over and that may help a lot to firm the soap and improve the texture. https://classicbells.com/soap/cpopAfterTheFact.html

The only things that I can think of that would cause the odor are the fragrance oil and the oat milk.

Thanks DeeAnna, I think you are right. I usually soap around 110 but I also have never worked with honey and a milk at the same time. I figured I would want to soap much cooler since the milk/honey causes the soap to heat.

 

[ninibug09]

I just tried using a different lye calculator from MMS. The calculator shows different ranges for the lye. I used 3.7 oz. lye which according to this is a 3% superfat and the website notes to "proceed with caution" when using this amount of lye. The safer ranges for lye that are noted are 5-8% superfat. I am wondering if my recipe was lye heavy? It is really difficult to tell because different lye calculators offer different recommended amounts. Not sure which to go with. Any thoughts on which lye calculator is best?

 

[DeeAnna]

"...3% superfat and the website notes to "proceed with caution" when using this amount of lye..."

I don't get that -- there's no reason for warning people about a 3% superfat. I use a 3% superfat for most of my soap batches and don't see any problem with batches being unexpectedly lye heavy. Even a beginner should be able to safely make soap at 3% superfat.

"...I am wondering if my recipe was lye heavy?..."

Don't wonder. Find out with a zap test. I honestly doubt it is lye heavy because nothing you've shared sounds like lye-heavy soap, but the only way to know is to test.

"...Any thoughts on which lye calculator is best?..."

All the major soap recipe calcs are fine. My advice is to pick one and stick with it.

I think of the calcs that most people like, Soapee.com and Soapcalc.net are the two that I hear people mention the most. If I were to use an online calc, I'd probably use Soapee.

 

[penelopejane]

I didn’t mean the SF was high I meant the 36% lye concentration was pretty high for a recipe you’re not really familiar with.

I use 3%SF and lower with no problem.

The split method is: mix your lye 3.7oz with 3.7oz water. Mix your oils separately. Add 6.5 - 3.7 = 2.8 oz of recipe water remaining to your oils as milk.

You can mix milk powder to the 2.8oz to turn the 3.7 oz of water you added to the lye into milk once it’s all mixed together. Look on your powdered milk can and work out how much you need to add. This means effectively you will be using 100% milk in your recipe.

This stops milk being burnt, no mucking around with frozen milk and is easy.

 

[ninibug09]

UPDATE:
I attempted the same recipe again with some of the changes that you all recommended. This time, instead of soaping at 94 degrees F, I soaped at 104 degrees. I used the "split method" instead of using frozen milk in the lye. Instead of everything not heating up enough, now it heated up too much. I placed the mold in the freezer when I notice the soap was rising. It still volcanoed in the freezer I actually place the thermometer in the gelled center and it was about 200 degrees F! I'm not sure how to get this batch right but here are some thoughts, hoping someone can provide input: the mold is insulated with bubble wrap all the way around, bottom and top. I'm wondering if even with placing it in the freezer, the insulation is too much for a milk/honey soap. Also, I am using a discount for the liquids and everything is tracing very quickly. I'm wondering if the combo of discounted liquids, insulation, milk and honey are just causing everything to heat too quickly. Speaking of, does anyone know what the temp of soap should be as it is gelling? Is 200 degrees normal?

 

[penelopejane]

Did you still use 36% lye concentration?
It sounds like you did. As I said above that is a high lye concentration. When working with milk and honey you should try around 30% lye concentration.

With your mold and conditions you could try just leaving this soap on the bench to saponify or wrap it in a towel and check often. I’ve never put milk or honey soap in the fridge and haven’t had overheating.

 

[ninibug09]

Did you still use 36% lye concentration?
It sounds like you did. As I said above that is a high lye concentration. When working with milk and honey you should try around 30% lye concentration.

With your mold and conditions you could try just leaving this soap on the bench to saponify or wrap it in a towel and check often. I’ve never put milk or honey soap in the fridge and haven’t had overheating.

I think you are right. I remembered later on that the first soap that came out beautifully did not start that way. It had cracked, I smoothed the crack out, placed it in the freezer and it looked great the next day. I agree, I think a 36% lye concentration is too high. I am going to try a 30% lye concentration. Do you use the same concentration with any type of soap you make Penelope?

 

[penelopejane]

I use 30-32% lye concentration. I vary it depending on the soap I am making. AC accelerates soap fiercely so I use a lower concentration for that.

The FO you are using might be causing acceleration too. Check reviews but spicy scents often do. Sometimes you have to let go of some things - like scents in certain formulas. I am all for easy, consistent soaping. I wouldn’t bother with a recipe that I had to freeze. But that’s just me. If you desperately want that combination you can work through the process to achieve it. I’d try one change at a time without freezing first. The amount of honey you are using shouldn’t cause overheating by itself.