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soap ingredient FO?

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bettycrackpot

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hi all.
if i am making soap to sell; i understand i should list all of my ingredients. but how do you list a FO if its a blend? (especially if it someone else's that youve purchased?) can i just write "fragrance"? or do i need to figure it out? TIA!!! :)
(i am just learning my way around, so i apologize if this question has been asked before.)
 
G

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fragrance. unless its an eo blend and you would list the eo's used.

if it's an eo and a fragrance.. you would list the eo used and then fragrance.
 
G

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I think it's good to ask questions even if they've been asked before. We always come with better explanations when we revisit topics. And relax! You're on a friendly forum. :) And BTW welcome!!! :)

I'm a beginner myself, not yet selling my soaps, and I believe that simply listing "fragrances" at the appropriate spot of biggest first, smallest last would be appropriate on your ingredient list.

Another suggestion is that you ensure that you have liability insurance before selling soaps to the general public. I plan on joining HSMG if I don't find a better deal before I embark on selling. $480 per year.
 

Tabitha

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I have always just listed fragrance, or flavor which brings up a good point.

My flavor oils (from BCN) are made up of soybean oil, artificia flavors & saccharin.

Why are we not obligated to list all 3 ingredients that make up that flavor oil?

What if there was a soybean allergy & when our customer read th ingredient list it only said *flavor* so they assumed it was soybean free?

I have been phoning around & all flavors are made of multiple ingredients.
I have found Glycerols, Propylene Glycol, Water, Alcohol, assorted colors, assorted essential oils, Ethyl Alcohol, Polysorbate 80, Maple Sugar, Honey, Nutmeg, Triglycerides, Potassium Sorbate, Turmeric, Xanthan Gum and more. But the bottles come to us labeled *flavor* so we in turn add the word flavor to our ingredient list when in fact it could be almost anything.

Where DOES our responsibility & liabilty end?
 
G

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Tabitha said:
Where DOES our responsibility & liabilty end?
One *BIG* determinant is whether you are selling soap or are selling a cosmetic.

According Susan Cavitch ("The Soapmaker's Companion") you can avoid the more strict cosmetic standards if you meet two conditions:

(1) The detergent qualities of your soap must be due exclusively to the alkali-fatty acid compounds of soap. She says as far as she knows all CP soaps meet this requirement.

(2) Must be labeled, sold and represented only as soap. If you claim any medicinal or curative powers, your soap ceases to be soap and becomes a cosmetic. "If you claim your soap moisturizes, your soap is no longer a soap. If you claim that your soap helps people with eczema, your soap is not a soap."

The FDA rules concerning cosmetics are IMO incredibly strict, and I'll be surprised if any small operation soapers (us) can meet the FDA requirements regarding labeling, color additives, sanitary production process and false claims. It's clear to me that you have to STFU regarding medicinal/curative powers and be very strict in broadly applying this prohibition. It's just soap, folks. It washes you off, nothing else. The minute you start making claims you're in jeopardy of being prosecuted by the FDA.

I think we'll be fine if we stick to soap and not make any medical claims. You'd never get away with casual ingredient lists if you fell into the category of cosmetics. The important thing is that you must make up your mind whether you are selling soap or cosmetics and must understand the distinction and stay on the soap side of the soap-cosmetic borderline.
 

Lane

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Tabitha said:
Where DOES our responsibility & liabilty end?
It doesn't... :?

I was doing research for a preservative to put in my conditioners. I almost bought Germaben II and after looking into it, I found it is made with propylene glycol AND propylparaben which are two ingredients I state are NOT in my products.... Technically, I could just put "preservative" on my label, and not state WHAT is in my preservative.

Regardless, I went with a preservative that does NOT have these ingredients.

I'd say, just research your FO's and do what you feel comfortable doing. Remember, what you leave OFF your label could say more about your product/company verses what you put ON your label...
 

Tabitha

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Technically, I could just put "preservative" on my label, and not state WHAT is in my preservative.
Would the word preservatite satisfy the FDA? The FDA is so grey, it's not black & white, it's seems to all but up to interpertaion, much like the copywrite laws.
 

Lane

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If you don't make "claims' about your products...can the FDA regulate it?

I was also just told that if you call yourself a "business" you MUST have a license. If you call yourself a "Crafter" pretty much you can get away with anything... ???

I'm stuck fussing with the whole license thing because my shops are online and I live in NV with my primary residence being in IA. IA doesn't require licenses to sell out of your home or in shops (well, the small town I lived in, it didn't matter...) but in NV it is a whole different story. I can't even have an open house. In order to apply for the license I have to have NV be my primary! :x :x :x

Thank goodness my best friend is a lawyer AND financial adviser!!
 
G

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I can't answer whether the FDA or FTC or both has jurisdiction over soap, but I'm sure it's clear that probably none of us have the ability to conform to cosmetic laws. That's very definitive that we can make no claims at all regarding medical or curative powers, and I take it to mean no claim that it's moisturizing or softening. I think we can get away with "formulated for dry skin" or "formulated for oily skin." I think we can also say, "Makes my skin feel really moist and soft." Please note however that I'm speculating.

Lane, I'm not a lawyer (obviously) but it has been my experience that what you call yourself generally has little to do with what the law considers you to be. I doubt there is any distinction between calling yourself a business or calling yourself a crafter. A skunk can claim to be a rabbit with racing stripes but it's still a skunk, right?

I can't tell you what to do but I can tell you what happens in practicality, particularly in Los Angeles. Here you just run your business and pay your taxes. If the city catches up with you and demands you get a business license you're going to have to get one, and you'll also have to pay any tax obligation you didn't meet by not getting the license previously. There may also be a small penalty, just guessing 10-20 percent, but you're not going to be fined or thrown in jail. In fact when I incorporated my business the city caught up with me and all they demanded was that I get a business license immediately. No back payments, no interest, no penalty, no fines.

I suggest that it would be prudent to find out what penalties may be in place in your city and your state, but unless you're running a major business I see no problem with just going about your business.

The one *BIG* thing you must not do however is to skip paying your income taxes. If you earn more than $400 per year you have to file a tax return and you will have to file Schedule C "Profit and Loss." You may also have to pay Social Security taxes over a certain amount of income.

One other thing you must not forget (okay 2 big things) is that you must collect state sales tax on sales within your state and also city sales tax if either applies. One benefit however is that to do this you will get a "resale permit" and that also allows you to purchase your raw ingredients and not pay taxes, so anything you buy locally won't require your supplier to add sales tax.

I'd advise to be very careful about any claims you make, skip the business license, but always pay your income taxes and collect sales tax on local sales. And don't call yourself anything. Let other people pick whatever labels they like. Just tell them you're good! :)
 

Tabitha

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We are really talking about 3 differnt levels of requirements by the FDA.

Soap
Cosmetics
Drugs

Some claims are cosmetic in nature while others are drug in nature.

I make cosmetics, lotion, scrubs, lip balm, M&P soap, etc.

For instance, with lotion (it is my understanding) words like moisturising are cosmetic claims while words such as anti-aging are drug claims.

let me go look for that FDA info & BRB.
 

Tabitha

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http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/cos-lab3.html

WHAT IS A COSMETIC?
A COSMETIC IS A PRODUCT, EXCEPT SOAP, INTENDED TO BE APPLIED TO THE HUMAN BODY FOR CLEANSING, BEAUTIFYING, PROMOTING ATTRACTIVENESS OR ALTERING THE APPEARANCE.
Sec. 201(i) FD&C Act


WHEN IS A COSMETIC ALSO A DRUG?
A COSMETIC IS ALSO A DRUG WHEN IT IS INTENDED TO CLEANSE, BEAUTIFY OR PROMOTE ATTRACTIVENESS AS WELL AS TREAT OR PREVENT DISEASE OR OTHERWISE AFFECT THE STRUCTURE OR ANY FUNCTION OF THE HUMAN BODY.
Sec. 201(g) and (i), FD&C Act
Sec. 509, FD&C Act
 

Tabitha

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I made it a sticky in the bath & body forum. I google it once a month so it might as well be somewhere easy to find :wink: .
 

Deda

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If I can chime in here...

Until 6 months ago I worked for a small cosmetics company, small in size, not in sales, over $1,000,000 per year. We sold mostly wholesale, but did a fair amount of online retail.

I had a unique opportunity to speak with someone from the FDA concerning labeling at the Natural Products East Expo at the Baltimore Expo in September of last year. Too bad it will be in Boston this year, don't think I will make the trip up there. Baltimore was so close.:cry:

What he conveyed to me was that to comply with FDA laws we needed to include the exact INCI ingredient and make NO CLAIMS as to healing or treatment. As long as we did that we were golden. I don't think the FDA regulates 'kitchen inspections'. The FDA can inspect based upon complaints. Then I think there recourse is to shut you down. No idea what happens then.

I don't soap in my 'food kitchen', my dear sweetest husband refitted my mudroom into a soaping kitchen, it's great. I have everything I need at arms reach, UPS can deliver just a few yards ways from where I use my ingreds! I have natural light, tons of storage and one MASSIVE sink to wash my buckets. Best part is my regular kitchen stays clean and ready to cook should my muse inspire (I think she's on vacation).

Where I live I had to get a FEIN, a State Sales and Use Tax ID, a Tradename, a Home Occupation Permit and a Business license. Seems like a lot, but all together it took me less than an hour and cost $38 total.



I'm trying to find my all inclusive list of INCI ingreds online. I will post the link as soon as I find it.
 

Deda

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This is the best link I can find. I have access to the 12,000 plus database, but it requires a user login.
If you absolutely can't find the INCI for something, PM me and I will see if I can locate it.
 

Lane

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Deda said:
This is the best link I can find. I have access to the 12,000 plus database, but it requires a user login.
If you absolutely can't find the INCI for something, PM me and I will see if I can locate it.
Great link, but it is giving me pains... *grumble*
 
G

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There's an interesting footnote to Deda's link which is worth reading, as follows:
Please note that handcrafted soap has two distinct, yet correct, ways the ingredients can be listed. All the ingredients in the formula, in descending weight order, prior to saponification OR all the components of the soap, in descending weight order, after saponification. The former, prior to saponification, method is preferred as the most correct, however will not include the glycerin that is in the end soap because it was not added separately but rather was a part of the oils/fats triglyceride molecules. The latter method, post saponification, lists the reaction products (coconut oil soap is listed sodium cocoate) and thus is more difficult to calculate the correct place in the ingredient listing for the glycerin created/freed and the water remaining, as well as the reaction products of other ingredients and unsaponifiables. However it will also not include sodium hydroxide (lye) on the ingredient list because there is none in the finished soap. It's been said that there is typically 12-15% water left in a fully cured bar and average content of 10% glycerin. Here we have listed both for all our soaps, so you may choose which to put on your label when buying our soap in bulk, however we recommend using the prior saponification (first listed) list as we used to do on our Pinkhouse Soapworks labels.
 

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