Soap Calc's are decieving!

[Obsidian]

It is not total batch size I'm harping on. That is just to show you soap calc's are not calculating all of it the second time you hit the print button so you don't exactly realize WHY all of a sudden has your batch size diminished.

Seriously? you think people are stupid enough not to realize that if they add or subtract water that the total batch won't change?

You tell me, how would you increase your oil while still keeping your same water lye:ratio that you like? If you don't know that then your bars might not performing as well as they should.

I would use a soap cal as they were designed. I would input my recipe with the total amount of oils I want, change the default water amount to ratios and use my standard 2:1 water/lye

If I want it to be even simpler, I'll open up soapmaker 3 and hit resize on my recipe and adjust the oil amount. Again my ratio is 2:1 and that won't change.

I may have missed it but what exactly do you think will be the difference between bars of the exact same recipe but with slightly different water amounts? Not the obvious and early differences either but the aged for at least 8 weeks and most of the excess water should be gone by now differance?

 

[iwannasoap]

I was referring to when DeeAnna and others first mentioned water and gelling. Your response did not invite polite elaboration on the topic!

Again with the sugar, you said that it DOES cause rancidity, with no qualifiers such as in certain amounts and/or conditions. That was what was the issue. It generally comes down to how you formulate things. Also with the breathing topic, people often cover the mould with cling film before the bars are cut. After the cut, they have air to flow around, of course, but that short time in the mould rarely has unwanted side effects.

You come over in a very arrogant way, even when you are wrong about something, which puts people off a great deal. It makes them less likely to read you posts in general

Wow, your fast. The only thing I was implying was that if used, by chance, incorrectly the sugar will get to hot and spoil the milk. Playing it safe by not allowing gel was just a suggestion and there is nothing wrong with that. It will ensure that the milk does not start smelling. Besides, I was just giving my opinion from the original question. Do you think her response was appropriate?

 

[Obsidian]

Does that mean that after you cook it I can come over there and squeeze it really hard and it not crumble or squish in my hands?

Once it cures, yes. Of course fresh HP will squish as will most any fresh soap.

 

[iwannasoap]

Seriously? you think people are stupid enough not to realize that if they add or subtract water that the total batch won't change?



I would use a soap cal as they were designed. I would input my recipe with the total amount of oils I want, change the default water amount to ratios and use my standard 2:1 water/lye

If I want it to be even simpler, I'll open up soapmaker 3 and hit resize on my recipe and adjust the oil amount. Again my ratio is 2:1 and that won't change.

I may have missed it but what exactly do you think will be the difference between bars of the exact same recipe but with slightly different water amounts? Not the obvious and early differences either but the aged for at least 8 weeks and most of the excess water should be gone by now differance?

The difference will be more soap in the bar that does not evaporate. Knowing how to barely adjust for the right texture and still get the most soap, to me, is important. I would like to create the most soap possible for the people I give to or sell.
Additionally, soap made with less water will lose the water it's supposed to much quicker then one made with more water.
I used to make it with more water. Still have some from a year ago. I used it. Didn't last but 3-4 weeks. That gives me and you a bad name which in turn makes it harder for you. Thanks for asking.

 

[BrewerGeorge]

...
You tell me, how would you increase your oil while still keeping your same water lye:ratio that you like? If you don't know that then your bars might not performing as well as they should.

OMG! Is this whole thing because the Print browser window doesn't refresh when you recalculate?

 

[iwannasoap]

Once it cures, yes. Of course fresh HP will squish as will most any fresh soap.

Then it is not done saponifying and there is no guarantee that what you superfatted with is actually the SF. For instance, , ehh never mind you probably already know why I say that. I don't need to repeat it.

OMG! Is this whole thing because the Print browser window doesn't refresh when you recalculate?

That's funny but actually it can be fixed without the refresh. I know what your talking about.
But no, what I am talking about is that you like to have a certain water:lye ratio to get the texture that you want.
That's great. Nothing wrong with that.
How do increase your oils while keeping the same water:lye ratio without an overage?
What if one day you wanted to increase your oils without changing your water lye:ratio? How would a newcomer know he can do that? How would a newcomer realize increasing oils mean more soap in the same size bar? Along the way of trying to say that I have read misconceptions. I'm just replying back but at the same time I am learning and reinforcing what I already know.

 

[Obsidian]

Then it is not done saponifying and there is no guarantee that what you superfatted with is actually the SF. For instance, , ehh never mind you probably already know why I say that. I don't need to repeat it.

Yes it's done saponifying. Its still soft because I use extra water in my HP to keep it a bit more fluid so it goes in the mold easier.
The whole point of HP is to complete the saponification process in a short amount of time. Doing a simple zap test will show there is no lye left.

Do you HP much? What water amount do you use? I've never seen really hard fresh HP unless it was a salt bar.

I know you probably won't share your recipe but I'm curious about it. 3-4 weeks out of one bar seems perfectly normal to me but there is more than one person washing with said bar here.

 

[iwannasoap]

Seriously? you think people are stupid enough not to realize that if they add or subtract water that the total batch won't change?

I would use a soap cal as they were designed. I would input my recipe with the total amount of oils I want, change the default water amount to ratios and use my standard 2:1 water/lye

If I want it to be even simpler, I'll open up soapmaker 3 and hit resize on my recipe and adjust the oil amount. Again my ratio is 2:1 and that won't change.

I may have missed it but what exactly do you think will be the difference between bars of the exact same recipe but with slightly different water amounts? Not the obvious and early differences either but the aged for at least 8 weeks and most of the excess water should be gone by now differance?

This whole thing started because I stated changing your water values effects oil and lye values which it does if you want to keep the same total amount of oil.
Many people disagreed. So, the answer to your question is yes but they are not ignorant. They just are too used to using spell checkers and are not used to actually knowing what is going on. Not Every one mind you but some.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-06-2014/P3ptm5.gif

 

[iwannasoap]

Yes it's done saponifying. Its still soft because I use extra water in my HP to keep it a bit more fluid so it goes in the mold easier.
The whole point of HP is to complete the saponification process in a short amount of time. Doing a simple zap test will show there is no lye left.

Do you HP much? What water amount do you use? I've never seen really hard fresh HP unless it was a salt bar.

I know you probably won't share your recipe but I'm curious about it. 3-4 weeks out of one bar seems perfectly normal to me but there is more than one person washing with said bar here.

My wife used to HP. I am assuming she related to it better because she cooked all her life.
I showed and bought books to show her that CP is ready just as fast or faster then HP. Even in terms of losing weight. In fact, my last loaf I kept the first piece. I used it the next day after I made it. It didn't break or anything and I'm still using it. That was 10/29/17.
I was just looking back through my notes to give you a good average. I made a sandalwood bar back in May. In 4 weeks it only lost 11 grams. I might have only used 1.1 x the amount of water as lye. Most of the time their ready in two. I just hold on to them as long as I can to make sure.
And speaking of recipe, I have no problems giving it to you because I know its already been tried and I have 13 of them. But I would like to make them better and even longer. I'm up to 6-8 weeks now which is good enough but I want to see if I can get them even better with the way it feels on your skin.
I told my wife today we are going to order soap from somebody. It could be from here even. I want to see how ours stands up to the competition.

 

[mx5inpenn]

Well I've avoided responding for a couple days now, but I might as well jump in...

iwannasoap, did you ever stop to think that your astounding idea about water is not a commonly accepted way of doing things for a reason? Or maybe you think every soaper except you is too stupid to figure it out?

Water evaporates. As long as you use enough to fully dissolve the lye and not so much that you have a soupy mess forever, it really doesn't matter much and everyone has their own preference for ratios.

As far as size of the batch goes, of course water makes a difference in how full your mold is. Again, is everyone but you too stupid to understand simple math? The part that is an issue for everyone involved is this... You care that the mold be filled to the exact point you decide on and want the minimal amount of water possible. It appears that *no one* else cares that much! I know how many ounces of oil I need at my typical water ratio for all of my molds. If I change that ratio for some reason, I understand I will end up with a very small difference in the amount that goes in the mold. It is *never* enough to cause any concern.

As far as cured soap made with higher water not lasting as long... My bars made with 2:1 last me between 4 and 6 weeks. They only last 3 or 4 for my husband. Different people have different results with the same exact soap because of how they use it. I have never had someone complain that the bars I make don't last long enough. Since water evaporates, the oils you use and the salts they turn into have far more to do with longevity.

I am not going to argue with you or debate your methods ad nauseam. You do you. If it ends up as soap you like, you're doing it right. But remember that applies to everyone else as well.

Lastly, I would strongly suggest any person new to soaping completely ignore everything you have said. Early on is the time to experiment and learn from every variation, including water amounts, in every batch and figure out the things that work for you personally!

 

[iwannasoap]

Last try:

Many people, myself included, make batches based on oil weight. All things considered, the amount of water and lye doesn't vary massively - even switching between a 100% OO or a 100% CO soap, a 1000g batch has a total batch size variance of 152 g at 30% solution strength, only 100g of which is water. It really doesn't matter to most of us.

In fact, if you want to be making a set amount of actual soap, by lowering your oil amount to allow for more water you are in fact making less soap in total.

You are assuming, in ignorance (but people often take that word as a bad thing, it isn't always, depends on how you are talking whilst in it) that a higher temperature = higher change of gelling. That is false. Because of the phase changes, a soap with more water can more easily change phase even at lower temperatures. The higher temperatures that come from using less water aren't enough to get the soap to change phase when the soap doesn't have that water which itself is needed to change phase.

That's another aspect which doesn't help. Someone states the truth and your response is not worded in a way which indicates you are looking to learn. "You're contradicting yourself now.", "That makes no sense" are totally different than saying "I don't quite follow what you're saying - how can less water mean a hotter soap but then a less change of gelling?". You imply that it can't be right because it doesn't make sense to you, instead of asking the other person to explain in more detail to help you to understand. That is not a good way to come over in any walk of life, especially not on a forum.

I know its later and this has nothing to do with any post. But I'll tell you. Some people on here are some misquoted people and then turn around and tell me I don't know what I'm talking about.
Here's one for you - Been told on a couple of occasions, and even by smart people apparently, that higher water gels soap hotter. I tell them I disagree and tell them why. They are disagreeing just to make themselves sound right. I get sent a link explaining from a challenge by a Clara somebody about gelling water.
This is one of the first things it says "Auntie Clara explains it better than I will, but low water batter gels at a higher temperature and possibly for a shorter time that high water batter. "
Saying the exact thing I have been saying but yet I am so rude.
By the way, It is not for a shorter time. It will be for a longer time.

And, what do you mean "changing phases"?

Well I've avoided responding for a couple days now, but I might as well jump in...

iwannasoap, did you ever stop to think that your astounding idea about water is not a commonly accepted way of doing things for a reason? Or maybe you think every soaper except you is too stupid to figure it out?

Water evaporates. As long as you use enough to fully dissolve the lye and not so much that you have a soupy mess forever, it really doesn't matter much and everyone has their own preference for ratios.

As far as size of the batch goes, of course water makes a difference in how full your mold is. Again, is everyone but you too stupid to understand simple math? The part that is an issue for everyone involved is this... You care that the mold be filled to the exact point you decide on and want the minimal amount of water possible. It appears that *no one* else cares that much! I know how many ounces of oil I need at my typical water ratio for all of my molds. If I change that ratio for some reason, I understand I will end up with a very small difference in the amount that goes in the mold. It is *never* enough to cause any concern.

As far as cured soap made with higher water not lasting as long... My bars made with 2:1 last me between 4 and 6 weeks. They only last 3 or 4 for my husband. Different people have different results with the same exact soap because of how they use it. I have never had someone complain that the bars I make don't last long enough. Since water evaporates, the oils you use and the salts they turn into have far more to do with longevity.

I am not going to argue with you or debate your methods ad nauseam. You do you. If it ends up as soap you like, you're doing it right. But remember that applies to everyone else as well.

Lastly, I would strongly suggest any person new to soaping completely ignore everything you have said. Early on is the time to experiment and learn from every variation, including water amounts, in every batch and figure out the things that work for you personally!

"As far as size of the batch goes, of course water makes a difference in how full your mold is. Again, is everyone but you too stupid to understand simple math? "

I think your so busy being sarcastic that you completely missed what I was saying. So yes, in your case, I do think there might be ignorance involved. Briefly, Water does not make soap EVER. Water:Lye ratio that you like can be used for consistency. If you increase your oil, you will have the same exact water:lye ratio but more soap in the bar to last even longer! The total volume had nothing to do with it. It is what you do with that volume.
People on here are disagreeing just to be disagreeing. They give me an article to read. I go read it and it says exactly what I have been saying. Sounds like your one of them. I am sure that you make great soap but it is not me with the ego problem around here.

 

[BrewerGeorge]

Wow.

 

[iwannasoap]

I’ve been reading along without much to say (too many numbers, not a science person) and this right here is throwing a ton of clarification at me on why this discussion matters to you.

Two questions:
What bar size do you usually make?
How long do you expect your soaps to last?

3–4 weeks is my goal with a 3.5/4oz bar size and a damp shower (we’ve got circulation issues in the bathroom). I understand that you e been concerned with water content vs space in the mold for actual soap. My understanding was the fatty acid profile of the oils makes a bigger difference in longevity of soap after a proper cure.

If the discussion was entirely to point out changing ratios in a finite space then I understand the discussion and will reread with an eye towards vocabulary differences based on the writer but I feel that I’m missing a huge chunk of something that makes it more than that.

Well, your one of the few willing to try and understand what I've been saying. Thanks.
It isn't entirely water content vs. space that I wanted new people to know.
This is it in a nutshell.
When I started using a soap calc, I realized that when my water:lye ratio lowered the total volume lowered. I never knew why? My loaves kept coming up short or had overages. My bars also did not come out as hard and I even wound up with partial gel on occasion.
Once my spread sheet was complete I found out why! I found out that when this happens you go back and re adjust your oil amount which results in more soap in the bar and your water:lye ratio will still be the same but with more oil to actually turn into soap and your total volume does not change.
It may not bother others but me being new at the time (still am) made it harder on my learning curve.
Once you figure out you can add more oil and still keep the same water:lye ratio then you are able to think about the fluidity of your soap. You have 2 choices. Adding more water or using a lye discount (Super fatting is the same thing) to get the fluidity you want. I have learned adding (would have learned this from a calc but they are not programmed enough) adding more water takes away the soap your bars will produce. However, lye discounting or just plain adding much more oil will give you the same fluidity. I learned this from my spreadsheet which a soap calc. is also capable of but they do not complete their programming in making the website. they just resize your total quantity and you lose the knowledge that could be gained. Sort of the difference between me and you in a car and a race car driver. We are just steering wheel holders. Here is a picture of one of my bars. Instead of an incredible amount of water it was lye discounted about 15% and it is still vary hard.
I admit there are things I could have done better and I will in the next time but it isn't to bad for doing it the first time.

 

[mx5inpenn]

"As far as size of the batch goes, of course water makes a difference in how full your mold is. Again, is everyone but you too stupid to understand simple math? "

I think your so busy being sarcastic that you completely missed what I was saying. So yes, in your case, I do think there might be ignorance involved. Briefly, Water does not make soap EVER. Water:Lye ratio that you like can be used for consistency. If you increase your oil, you will have the same exact water:lye ratio but more soap in the bar to last even longer! The total volume had nothing to do with it. It is what you do with that volume.
People on here are disagreeing just to be disagreeing. They give me an article to read. I go read it and it says exactly what I have been saying. Sounds like your one of them. I am sure that you make great soap but it is not me with the ego problem around here.

First of all, I wasn't being sarcastic. Second, you are reading what you want to see, not what is actually said. *That* is ignorance. I didn't say water makes soap anywhere in my post. I am quite certain everyone here understands increasing oils and lye makes more soap. Your attitude that everyone is doing it wrong because it isn't your way is most certainly an ego problem. Your personal attack simply because I don't agree with you is most certainly an ego problem.

A 4 oz bar of soap is a 4 oz bar of soap. It doesn't matter if you put 5 oz of water in your batch to start and I used 6 oz. The water evaporates, soap is what remains.

 

[cmzaha]

All I am going to add to this is, if I had seen this thread has a new soaper I would have been so confused I probably would have never soaped a day in my life!! :headbanging: :headbanging: I use soap calculators because frankly I do not have the luxury of enough time to manually figure out my caustic soda requirement.

 

[jcandleattic]

Wow.

Indeed

 

[iwannasoap]

First of all, I wasn't being sarcastic. Second, you are reading what you want to see, not what is actually said. *That* is ignorance. I didn't say water makes soap anywhere in my post. I am quite certain everyone here understands increasing oils and lye makes more soap. Your attitude that everyone is doing it wrong because it isn't your way is most certainly an ego problem. Your personal attack simply because I don't agree with you is most certainly an ego problem.

A 4 oz bar of soap is a 4 oz bar of soap. It doesn't matter if you put 5 oz of water in your batch to start and I used 6 oz. The water evaporates, soap is what remains.

Maybe I took you wrong and maybe I do have an ego problem I'll never know.
I do realize that you know water doesn't make soap. I understand.
But when you, and others, write things like
"It doesn't matter if you put 5 oz of water in your batch to start and I used 6 oz. The water evaporates, soap is what remains."
My reasoning is this - when I made that batch with 5 oz. of water in it, I was able to put an extra ounce of oil in it to turn into soap. Where you on the other hand did not and that ounce you put in their wasted and evaporated. You replaced it with water. My water:lye ratio remains the same and I get the same fluidity. You do too, difference is more oil, same volume, same water:lye ratio. Do you see why I don't understand? Is is possible that their is a chance you don't understand what I am saying or is this something that you already know because if it is then all this was not written for you. I've wrote another comment that explained my problems and why I started this. If I would have understood this from the start my learning curve would have been much easier in understanding things like lye discount and adding water are far two different approaches, with one being better then the other, at achieving that same fluidity that you want.
All this is not my idea by the way. I have just learned from it and use it. A chemist wrote this in his book which is what I do and it works very well.

 

[toxikon]

So can we condense the entire spiel into: you like to use a higher lye concentration so your bars remain slightly larger due to less water to evaporate?

So... In any soap calc, you can just set your lye concentration to 40-50% and go on your merry way?

You'll find that most of us recommend a lower lye concentration for newbies because:
a.) The batter will generally stay fluid a bit longer to allow for more working time (especially HP)
b.) The soap will achieve gel easier

After they have a few batches under their belt, they can play with water discounting more.

I personally started with a 25% lye concentration and I made some beautiful hard bars with that.

I think most will find that your choice of oils has a much more noticeable effect on bar hardness and longevity than water content does.

As long as you're curing your bars for the proper 4-6 weeks, most of the water content is going to evaporate.

 

[Primrose]

I know its later and this has nothing to do with any post. But I'll tell you. Some people on here are some misquoted people and then turn around and tell me I don't know what I'm talking about.
Here's one for you - Been told on a couple of occasions, and even by smart people apparently, that higher water gels soap hotter. I tell them I disagree and tell them why. They are disagreeing just to make themselves sound right. I get sent a link explaining from a challenge by a Clara somebody about gelling water.
This is one of the first things it says "Auntie Clara explains it better than I will, but low water batter gels at a higher temperature and possibly for a shorter time that high water batter. "
Saying the exact thing I have been saying but yet I am so rude.
By the way, It is not for a shorter time. It will be for a longer time.

And, what do you mean "changing phases"?

How on earth is this still going?????

I probably shouldn't jump in here but I'll bite. I might regret it.

You seem to have trouble grasping the well known concept that high water soap batter achieves gel more easily than low water soap.

You seem to be saying the opposite is true.

Please explain this ghost swirl soap I made recently. The main portion of the batter was made with high water (but goats milk substituted for all the water). As we know, when goats milk gels it turns tan/brown. The small portion of the batter was made with very low water (milk). The soap was wrapped in a towel to encourage gel.

Using your theory that low water soap gels easier, please explain why the low water portion of my batch has not gelled, and remains nice and white, whereas the majority of the soap which had high water, has gelled and turned a tan colour