SMF April 2018 Challenge - Sous Vide (HP) Soap swirling!
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I've been looking for hot process design inspiration on the 'net tonight. I've found a few ideas, but I'm going to have to draw my hunt to a close. I'm so very frustrated with the large number of hot process tutorials that cheerily insist HP soap doesn't need time to cure -- that a long cure is only for cold process soap.
I'm not overly fond of animated GIFs, but I'm making an exception for this one. It's perfectly appropriate for how I feel --
I'm not overly fond of animated GIFs, but I'm making an exception for this one. It's perfectly appropriate for how I feel --
Did my first try last night. Used a 1 gallon heavy bag meant for vacuum sealing, but I didn't put it in a pitcher -- just added it directly to the water bath. I also did not heat seal the bag. I just rolled the top over several times and closed it with a metal binder clip. I made sure the rolled over top stayed above the water level at all times. I pulled the water bath pot slightly to one side of the burner (gas flame) and kept the exposed plastic and metal clip on the cooler side of the pot. The water bath was at 180 F (80 C). The whole process took about 1 hour starting when I put the soap-batter-in-a-bag into the preheated water bath and ended with the soap in the mold.
Starting the cook. The batter was mixed to emulsion, and then poured into the bag. I included the fragrance, because I figured it won't evaporate if sealed in a bag and it's one less thing to mix in at the end. Adding the FO up front seemed to work fine, but -- note to self -- don't try mixing the batter in the bag again.
The batter at this point is liquidy, like thin gravy, and uniformly opaque.
Gel stage. 25 minutes later, the soap batter has become a non-pourable paste. The darker, more translucent spots are where the soap is in gel. I took the bag out of the water bath a time or two and gently mixed the paste through the bag with my gloved hands. You could wear leather gloves to protect your hands from the heat, but my nitrile gloves worked fine for brief moments of mixing.
I kept cooking the soap for another 20 minutes until almost all of the soap was in obvious gel. I'm not sure I needed to cook it the extra 20 mins, but I did it anyways, just to be on the safe side.
Coloring. I opened the bag and spooned out portions of soap after the cook for coloring. I closed the bag and put it back in the water bath to keep it warm. I added pigmented color to the cups of hot soap and mixed with a chopstick. I then glopped the colors back into the main bag, held the top of the bag closed with one hand, and quickly mixed the soap by massaging through the bag with the other hand. I tried to get the colors mixed enough without overmixing, but it was anybody's guess at that point how it was going to look -- all I could tell is it looked pretty messy.
Molding. I cut off one lower corner of the bag and squirted the soap into the mold, going back and forth to distribute the colors a little more evenly throughout the loaf. I ran a chopstick through the soap, with the idea that this might add a little more swirly-ness to the colors. I tidied the top as best as possible, but by that time, the surface had hardened up enough that I couldn't do a lot to it. I let it cool overnight and cut it into bars this morning.
I used almost exactly the same recipe for this soap as for the CP batches I've been making lately, so I can directly compare the sous vide HP with my usual CP soap. What is the same: The fat blend of lard, HO sunflower, coconut, and avocado. 3% superfat. 33% lye concentration. 5% KOH, 95% NaOH. What's different: Sodium lactate at 1.5% ppo added to the batter before the cook and 1 tablespoon yogurt (in 500 grams of fat) added right before coloring the soap. The water in these additives might have reduced the lye concentration by 1-2%, a minor difference.
The sous vide soap was fine to unmold and cut this morning (exactly like my CP soap). It is definitely a little softer than my regular CP, but not nearly as soft as the HP I've made with 25% lye concentration. This batch has a smooth texture that's closer to the look of CP soap -- not the usual "rustic" HP look. I'll leave the "reveal" of the cut soap for later.
Starting the cook. The batter was mixed to emulsion, and then poured into the bag. I included the fragrance, because I figured it won't evaporate if sealed in a bag and it's one less thing to mix in at the end. Adding the FO up front seemed to work fine, but -- note to self -- don't try mixing the batter in the bag again.
The batter at this point is liquidy, like thin gravy, and uniformly opaque.
Gel stage. 25 minutes later, the soap batter has become a non-pourable paste. The darker, more translucent spots are where the soap is in gel. I took the bag out of the water bath a time or two and gently mixed the paste through the bag with my gloved hands. You could wear leather gloves to protect your hands from the heat, but my nitrile gloves worked fine for brief moments of mixing.
I kept cooking the soap for another 20 minutes until almost all of the soap was in obvious gel. I'm not sure I needed to cook it the extra 20 mins, but I did it anyways, just to be on the safe side.
Coloring. I opened the bag and spooned out portions of soap after the cook for coloring. I closed the bag and put it back in the water bath to keep it warm. I added pigmented color to the cups of hot soap and mixed with a chopstick. I then glopped the colors back into the main bag, held the top of the bag closed with one hand, and quickly mixed the soap by massaging through the bag with the other hand. I tried to get the colors mixed enough without overmixing, but it was anybody's guess at that point how it was going to look -- all I could tell is it looked pretty messy.
Molding. I cut off one lower corner of the bag and squirted the soap into the mold, going back and forth to distribute the colors a little more evenly throughout the loaf. I ran a chopstick through the soap, with the idea that this might add a little more swirly-ness to the colors. I tidied the top as best as possible, but by that time, the surface had hardened up enough that I couldn't do a lot to it. I let it cool overnight and cut it into bars this morning.
I used almost exactly the same recipe for this soap as for the CP batches I've been making lately, so I can directly compare the sous vide HP with my usual CP soap. What is the same: The fat blend of lard, HO sunflower, coconut, and avocado. 3% superfat. 33% lye concentration. 5% KOH, 95% NaOH. What's different: Sodium lactate at 1.5% ppo added to the batter before the cook and 1 tablespoon yogurt (in 500 grams of fat) added right before coloring the soap. The water in these additives might have reduced the lye concentration by 1-2%, a minor difference.
The sous vide soap was fine to unmold and cut this morning (exactly like my CP soap). It is definitely a little softer than my regular CP, but not nearly as soft as the HP I've made with 25% lye concentration. This batch has a smooth texture that's closer to the look of CP soap -- not the usual "rustic" HP look. I'll leave the "reveal" of the cut soap for later.
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BattleGnome
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My second batch had some gremlins, and didn’t turn out how I wanted. The goal was a DNA swirl but I did get some great texture.
Gremlin #1: I forgot to change the water setting and didn’t realize it until I has already mixed in my citric acid. Not so much an issue as an annoyance.
Gremlin #2: I tried to pour batter into an unsupported bag and spilled. User error, quick wipe down (color #1)
Gremlin #3: grabbed a cup to support my bags, spilled again. Another wipe down (still color #1)
Gremlin #4: color 2 just poured messy and got all over the seal. Just annoying.
Gremlin #5: color #3 was CP liquid when I poured and it altered my design. Not too much of a huge issue, my bar thickness is uneven but it leaves me with a few testers.
My crockpot set up. Color 3 had shifted under the other two and was probably completely submerged, compared to the other two. I tried to pipe splotches but it flowed a bit too fast and covered the other colors. Not quite what I wanted but the bars still turned out nice.
There’s supposed to be gold, black, and grey. The black is 95% covered by the grey. I think if the soap had been a uniform texture I would have splotched better and gotten almost a perfect swirl. No picture of the cut, they’re just standard chunky bars
Gremlin #1: I forgot to change the water setting and didn’t realize it until I has already mixed in my citric acid. Not so much an issue as an annoyance.
Gremlin #2: I tried to pour batter into an unsupported bag and spilled. User error, quick wipe down (color #1)
Gremlin #3: grabbed a cup to support my bags, spilled again. Another wipe down (still color #1)
Gremlin #4: color 2 just poured messy and got all over the seal. Just annoying.
Gremlin #5: color #3 was CP liquid when I poured and it altered my design. Not too much of a huge issue, my bar thickness is uneven but it leaves me with a few testers.
My crockpot set up. Color 3 had shifted under the other two and was probably completely submerged, compared to the other two. I tried to pipe splotches but it flowed a bit too fast and covered the other colors. Not quite what I wanted but the bars still turned out nice.
There’s supposed to be gold, black, and grey. The black is 95% covered by the grey. I think if the soap had been a uniform texture I would have splotched better and gotten almost a perfect swirl. No picture of the cut, they’re just standard chunky bars
Second batch done last night using a method fairly similar to the first. The idea of having to dirty up a bowl to emulsify the batter bothers the engineer in me. It sure would be an elegant solution to just weigh and mix everything in the bag.
From the first batch, I learned the hard way that stick blending in the bag is a fraught task. I think it could be done, but any small error will puncture the bag in an instant. I think a person would need to make an open "shark cage" of wire to prevent the mixer blade from touching the bag. I also learned that hand stirring or whisking in the bag is difficult and messy.
For this batch, I put the soap ingredients in the bag, closed the bag with a binder clip same as before, put the bag in the water bath to cook. Every 5-10 minutes, I took the bag out of the water bath, held it in the sink for safety, and massaged the mixture through the bag.
As you can imagine, it was slow going. After an hour of heating and massage, I could see soap grains forming and the mixture was gradually thickening, but the batter STILL wasn't emulsified. I could tell it might be another hour before the soap would give in and emulsify. And I was getting tired. <sigh> So I gave up, poured the batter into a bowl, SB'ed it to emulsion, put the batter back in the bag, and cooked it. It went quickly into gel and turned out fine.
From the first batch, I learned the hard way that stick blending in the bag is a fraught task. I think it could be done, but any small error will puncture the bag in an instant. I think a person would need to make an open "shark cage" of wire to prevent the mixer blade from touching the bag. I also learned that hand stirring or whisking in the bag is difficult and messy.
For this batch, I put the soap ingredients in the bag, closed the bag with a binder clip same as before, put the bag in the water bath to cook. Every 5-10 minutes, I took the bag out of the water bath, held it in the sink for safety, and massaged the mixture through the bag.
As you can imagine, it was slow going. After an hour of heating and massage, I could see soap grains forming and the mixture was gradually thickening, but the batter STILL wasn't emulsified. I could tell it might be another hour before the soap would give in and emulsify. And I was getting tired. <sigh> So I gave up, poured the batter into a bowl, SB'ed it to emulsion, put the batter back in the bag, and cooked it. It went quickly into gel and turned out fine.
dixiedragon
Well-Known Member
How did you color the soap? Do you stick blend in side the baggie, or whisk or what?
I colored the cooked soap, not the batter. I cooked just one bag of soap for the whole batch, and then poured portions from the bag into cups, added color, and stirred like crazy by hand. No SB because at that point I didn't want to cool the soap down any more than necessary.
Do the challenge rules say a person must portion off the batter for coloring and then do the cook? Gosh I hope not, cuz I've done it wrong if so. I know that's how SaltedFig did it, but it wasn't working as well in my head to do that -- it made more sense to me to divide the soap for coloring after the cook. I'll give the rules another read.
Do the challenge rules say a person must portion off the batter for coloring and then do the cook? Gosh I hope not, cuz I've done it wrong if so.
I know that's how SaltedFig did it, but it wasn't working as well in my head to do that -- it made more sense to me to divide the soap for coloring after the cook. I'll give the rules another read.
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Hi! You surprised me when you cooked first and colored second, but the SVHP idea was designed to be able to add additives after the cook. I personally think its easy to mix up the colors first, but that's just me doing things my way (and not a rule at all). So no problems - add colors when it suits your process .
... and I'm interested in following up on your idea of mixing in the bag ... that makes a lot of sense (I've mostly abandoned the pot for steaming, so this is a possible refinement as well).
I am concerned that there might be a bit of a difference with clipped bags, instead of air-tight. Have you tried a completely airtight setup (or do you think that your's was air tight?) I suspect there is a subtle difference ... but I'm not sure yet.
.... and I'm interested in following up on your idea of mixing in the bag ... that makes a lot of sense (I've mostly abandoned the pot for steaming, so this is a possible refinement as well).
I am concerned that there might be a bit of a difference with clipped bags, instead of air-tight. Have you tried a completely airtight setup (or do you think that your's was air tight?) I suspect there is a subtle difference ... but I'm not sure yet.
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Well, you have a point there, SaltedFig, and I'll give that a think. I imagine if I use this technique more so I don't feel like I'm fumbling around with all thumbs, I'll eventually learn what works.
I am wondering if adding color to the cooked soap vs. to the batter might create a different look. At least in the two batches I've made, the color looks more like soft washes of watercolor paint. Kind of pretty, if I do say so myself.
To be fair, I haven't compared my "add color to cooked soap" method with the "add color to the batter" method. Maybe both methods give that kind of look. I guess I'll have to try it and see.
PS -- Thanks for the reassurance about the rules. I appreciate that!
I am wondering if adding color to the cooked soap vs. to the batter might create a different look. At least in the two batches I've made, the color looks more like soft washes of watercolor paint. Kind of pretty, if I do say so myself.
To be fair, I haven't compared my "add color to cooked soap" method with the "add color to the batter" method. Maybe both methods give that kind of look. I guess I'll have to try it and see.
PS -- Thanks for the reassurance about the rules. I appreciate that!
It seems like cleaning the wire cage would be more work than a bowl. I have a silicone whisk that I don't use because I don't like it. I wonder if that could somehow be used.
If I had a silicone whisk, I might try that. A whisk has got to be better and hopefully faster than the massage and shake method.
I thought about a whisk, but my only whisk is made of plated steel and rather worn. I like to stick with stainless steel or plastic utensils for soaping.
I thought about a whisk, but my only whisk is made of plated steel and rather worn. I like to stick with stainless steel or plastic utensils for soaping.
neonstudy
Well-Known Member
11. neonstudy - Wow HP in a bag, count me in!1. dibbles - Never thought I'd do HP. Never say never.
2. BattleGnome - Adventure!
3. SunRiseArts - ╭(◔ ◡ ◔)/
4. earlene - I've got to try this!
5. amd - looks like I'm moving back into the kitchen...
6. scard - Maybe I can use my neem oil?
7. Penelopejane - maybe a good time to use a pesky FO.
8. Serene-Someone save me from myself.
9. SoapAddict415- I may not get a chance to try the challenge but I'd still like to vote.
10. DeeAnna -- I need more practice with HP, so HP-in-a-bag -- here I come!
I honestly think the closure on my bag is air tight -- or close enough to air tight to not make any difference. The bags I'm using are quite tall, and I'm being careful to fold the top over itself 4-5 times before adding the clip. I think if the bag could only be rolled 1-2 times, that would be another story entirely.
Another thing that supports my opinion -- I'm adding the fragrance at the beginning before the cook. I'm pretty sure I'd smell it as the soap was cooking if there were any leaks in the closure. I don't get any whiff of scent unless I deliberately open the bag.
I like the metal binder clip idea. I even wonder if I use a shisk-a-bob skewer to suspend the binder clips over the water bath (similar to hanging curtains) if the clips would hold. I think that they will if they are not the tiny ones and the bags aren't too heavy. I am going to try that unless someone else has and it failed.
Thanks for that feedback
*edited to add: I'd gone to full air exclusion for this method, and I'm still thinking in that space, but I might look at this idea a bit closer and consider whether there's a significant difference between "close enough" and "completely airtight", in the context of the end results. It is an interesting thought.
Hi Earlene, I've tried clipping to a skewer and it works, as long as the skewer is not metal!
(My metal skewer carried heat to the bag from the edges of the pot, and melted the bag).
I adore the combination idea!
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A caution, that has come out of the SVHP experimental thread ...
The bags are good, because they are flexible and allow for a little expansion as the soap cooks.
When I developed the technique, I did not envisage using anything other than a bag for the SVHP process, however the ideas are progressing and I am thinking of alternate containers. This requires that the gas expansion issue be addressed, so I think I will deal with it this way:
Safety warning: Do not use any tightly sealed container with this method.
Ziplock bags and soft closure plastic containers are acceptable (they can safely come open under pressure).
(Thank you to DeeAnna, for your baking soda comment!)
The bags are good, because they are flexible and allow for a little expansion as the soap cooks.
When I developed the technique, I did not envisage using anything other than a bag for the SVHP process, however the ideas are progressing and I am thinking of alternate containers. This requires that the gas expansion issue be addressed, so I think I will deal with it this way:
Safety warning: Do not use any tightly sealed container with this method.
Ziplock bags and soft closure plastic containers are acceptable (they can safely come open under pressure).
(Thank you to DeeAnna, for your baking soda comment!
)
BattleGnome
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Has anyone ever actually studied what happens to color during gel? Does processing soap cause changes similar to what happens when you color/pull sugar?
This would be the perfect chance to make a large batch and split into ungelled, colorant before gel, and colorant after gel. If I have a chance I’ll see if I can give it a try next week.
SunRiseArts
Well-Known Member
I am behind in the pages, so not sure if this has been asked. How long do the soap in the bags need to be simmer for it to gel? Does it take 1 hour? More?
BattleGnome
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My first batch was 90 minutes my second I think was 80 minutes. Both were in a crockpot on low, I don’t think the water had a chance to bubble. A proper boiling water will probably be quicker.
NsMar42111
Well-Known Member
1. dibbles - Never thought I'd do HP. Never say never.
2. BattleGnome - Adventure!
3. SunRiseArts - ╭(◔ ◡ ◔)/
4. earlene - I've got to try this!
5. amd - looks like I'm moving back into the kitchen...
6. scard - Maybe I can use my neem oil?
7. Penelopejane - maybe a good time to use a pesky FO.
8. Serene-Someone save me from myself.
9. SoapAddict415- I may not get a chance to try the challenge but I'd still like to vote.
10. DeeAnna -- I need more practice with HP, so HP-in-a-bag -- here I come!
11. Redhead1226 - Ill give it a go!
12. Neonstudy
13. nsmar42111-I have an idea for a use for this....
Ok I was poo pooing doing a challenge because I don't need more soap other than my usual right now...but after reading this, I realized something-if this works, it would be PERFECT for testing all those FO 1 oz bottles I have! I do HP, and it's a pain to divide up everything, it makes a ton of dishes, and never divides right when I make a big batch to split and test... so, 1lb of batter per baggie, multiple baggies in a crockpot, label each baggie with the scent, add entire bottle (no measuring whoo) of FO, put into 1lb loaf molds, tada! much less cleanup... I'm gonna work on this in the next few days.
2. BattleGnome - Adventure!
3. SunRiseArts - ╭(◔ ◡ ◔)/
4. earlene - I've got to try this!
5. amd - looks like I'm moving back into the kitchen...
6. scard - Maybe I can use my neem oil?
7. Penelopejane - maybe a good time to use a pesky FO.
8. Serene-Someone save me from myself.
9. SoapAddict415- I may not get a chance to try the challenge but I'd still like to vote.
10. DeeAnna -- I need more practice with HP, so HP-in-a-bag -- here I come!
11. Redhead1226 - Ill give it a go!
12. Neonstudy
13. nsmar42111-I have an idea for a use for this....
Ok I was poo pooing doing a challenge because I don't need more soap other than my usual right now...but after reading this, I realized something-if this works, it would be PERFECT for testing all those FO 1 oz bottles I have! I do HP, and it's a pain to divide up everything, it makes a ton of dishes, and never divides right when I make a big batch to split and test... so, 1lb of batter per baggie, multiple baggies in a crockpot, label each baggie with the scent, add entire bottle (no measuring whoo) of FO, put into 1lb loaf molds, tada! much less cleanup... I'm gonna work on this in the next few days
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