Selling Soap Before Cure w/ "Don't Use Until" Date?

[AlchemyandAshes]

This isn't the first time I've seen this, but today a "fellow soaper" told me at a craft show I participated in that she went home LAST NIGHT to make more soap to sell TODAY. :Kitten Love:
I asked if she did Cold Process, and she said yes.
She said she puts a date on the label and tells them "Do not use until this date". :shock:
HOW MANY CUSTOMERS ARE GOING TO BUY SOAP TODAY, READ THAT DATE, NOT KNOW WHY THEY SHOULD WAIT, THINK ITS NO BIG DEAL AND USE THAT SOAP TONIGHT?
Here's my issues with this:
1. A lot of people don't read labels. That's their responsibility, yes, but if your selling a product before its ready to use...that's your bad.
2. Most people have no idea that soap is cured. They don't know why it's cured. So telling them its not cured yet and wait to use it is probably not going to make sense to them. You are handing them an unfinished product. Do you think they go home and write it on their calendars in 4 weeks: "I can finally use the soap I purchased last month!"?
3. Even with a steep water discount, I doubt her soaps were firm enough in 12 hours (at most) to handle without making marks and finger prints all over them, much less dents and gouges.
4. Even HP should be cured. Yeah yeah, you CAN use it right away...technically, if you gel your CP soap you COULD use it the next day or day after (we all test our own soap, right?) but the pH is going to be higher, it's going to melt right down the drain because its still soft, and your lather isn't going to be at its best. The thought of a customer using my fresh soap and either (best case scenario) finding it at subpar quality than my fully cured soap or (worst case scenario) having skin issues because of the high alkalinity of fresh CP makes me cringe :shifty:

AM I THE ONLY ONE WHO HAS A PROBLEM WITH THIS?

 

[danahuff]

You are not the only one who has a problem with it. Funnily enough, the first person I bought handmade soap from used to do this all the time, and until I made soap, I didn't understand what she was doing. She would tell customers to wait two weeks before using and even had a space on her labels where she'd write the date when it was cut, and it was always only a few days before she sold it. So she was probably counting on the customer to give the soap a two-week cure (never mind that it should have been a four-week cure anyway). I was ignorant at the time. I just thought it was something to do with handmade soap.

I have trouble getting family and friends to understand this concept. It's probably partially my fault because it a soap turns out nice, I usually take picture of it and put it on Facebook or show the pictures to work friends, and they always want that one, right away. When I tell them it won't be ready for four weeks, well, that's not what they want to hear. I can't in good conscience sell soap that isn't ready to be used. If I were giving soap as a gift for Christmas and knew it would remain unopened, by which time the soap would be fully cured, it would be different.

You are absolutely right about others not knowing why they should wait and what a cure accomplishes. I would just keep doing the right thing.

 

[green soap]

This is one of my pet peeves too. Every soap I have purchased from soap makers in my area has been under cured.

I never sell under cured soap myself, my wait times are at least 4 weeks for CP and at least 8 weeks for salt soaps. Folks don't know about the cure times and if you use a soap before it is ready it will not reflect well on the quality of your soap. So if I run out of a scent I tell people that I made another batch and it is curing, and it will be ready in X number of weeks. Some of my customers are catching on to this and when I have a favorite scent available they purchase multiple bars. I think it also helps my customers appreciate the soap even more.

 

[IrishLass]

AM I THE ONLY ONE WHO HAS A PROBLEM WITH THIS?

No, not by far. It's one of my biggest pet peeves.........other than new soapers who have only been making soap for a month or two at the most and think it's perfectly fine to start selling their first batches right away, while advertising medical claims on them besides.

IrishLass

 

[thefarmerdaughter]

You should ask this "fellow soaper" Would she purchase wine that wasn't done fermenting? or how about cheese that wasn't done ageing?

 

[chicklet]

I think that practice is just bad all the way around. We've all heard tales of the lye soap great great granny used to make and a lot of the times the tales weren't good - maybe it was just that the grannies in my family didn't know what they were doing, but older relatives talk about the harshness or downright skin burning properties of the soap. I know that today we use more precise scales, a stable lye product, better oils, etc., but it makes me wonder if the people who sell soap before its time are contributing to the "harsh lye soap" fears. Plus, how could that be good for their business?? Don't they want repeat customers?

 

[AlchemyandAshes]

I also went to her website and saw her listings for "All Natural" soaps used Fragrance Oils. :evil:

 

[petrolejka]

I also went to her website and saw her listings for "All Natural" soaps used Fragrance Oils. :evil:

Before I started to look into soap making and such I had no idea FO were not natural. It irritates me when people and companies try to sell more product by misleading or straight up lying about things like this. One of the reasons I love that I can make my own soap. Even though it's still pretty crappy but eventually good soap for my family.
I especially dislike Avon for calling their body products "Naturals" but when you look at the ingredients list there's not all that much natural going on.

Sorry for the /rant

As far as selling fresh soap - I'd never be a returning customer. I would not be able to wait 4 weeks before using it and then would be disappointed in the quality of the product and think all handmade soaps are like that. That seller hurts her own business and gives handmade soap bad rep

 

[AngelMomma]

What???!!! Thats asking for a case in civil court.

I saw start up booth at a local flea market. No product yet, just signs. "NO CHEMICALS, ALL NATURAL" Sooooo.....I guess they aren't using Lye in their soap or preservatives in their lotions! HA! If I had a clean sheet of paper and a roll of tape I could have corrected their mistake :twisted: :twisted: Hahaha, just kidding, I couldn't do that. Hope I don't see the person there though. I don't know how I would handle that.

 

[pleiades]

As a newbie, I was wondering how soap makers who sell their products manage this. I started making soap 3 months ago as Christmas presents and by Christmas day all my soaps will be at least 6 weeks old. I have in the last week made a couple of batches and wondered about including these in the 'soap hampers'. I decided it would be awkward, I'd have to explain why the soap couldn't be used and ensure people understood. However, Explaining to family is one thing but selling bars without the information on why the soap shouldn't be used is an entirely different one and one that I had been wondering if it was legal.

On another note, this forum is brilliant. I have done research online and bought a book (which suggests 3-5% superfatting) and here I am learning daily about superfatting, troubleshooting and lots of other ideas. It's all in one place, all so available and seems like such a friendly forum.

 

[AlchemyandAshes]

As far as selling fresh soap - I'd never be a returning customer. I would not be able to wait 4 weeks before using it and then would be disappointed in the quality of the product and think all handmade soaps are like that. That seller hurts her own business and gives handmade soap bad rep

My husband said the exact same thing.

 

[Lindy]

I have seen some of the best and biggest sellers (handcrafters) do pre-buys of their products. We all know that once the soap quits zapping it is safe and if they are labeling the products with a do not use before date they are legally safe. Mind you if it is still zapping when packaged then I believe there is a problem.

Just my take on it - sorry.....

 

[AlchemyandAshes]

I have seen some of the best and biggest sellers (handcrafters) do pre-buys of their products. We all know that once the soap quits zapping it is safe and if they are labeling the products with a do not use before date they are legally safe. Mind you if it is still zapping when packaged then I believe there is a problem.

What do you mean by "legally safe"?

I do not know the differences between US and Canadian law where the sale of handcrafted body products are concerned, but here in the US, there is no governing body that checks the alkalinity of your soap before sale, and I doubt just putting a "do not use until date" on your label doesn't protect you from civil suits in the US - the country where you can sue anyone for anything! So "legally safe" is kind of vague. Maybe someone can shed some light on the legal aspects of such. I wasn't questioning the legality of the sale of uncured soap, just the quality and safety. As much as I don't want the government involved with we small business/hobbyist/crafters...sometimes I think some sort of regulation would help our industry be more respected. When they finally make me Queen, I just may have to invoke those powers... :twisted:

The FDA has regulations on what is deemed "soap" as opposed to "cosmetic" and does not allow medical claims, but even they don't state what the pH of your soap must be at sale time (that I am aware of). There is the Consumer Product Safety Commission, which I presume is to interfere when a product has been deemed unsafe, but I'm betting a complaint has to be filed first, and most of what I've read about it deals more with making sure that what you label as ingredients are actually your ingredients, and that if your label says 6 oz, it better be 6 oz...or that you're not using hazardous or illegal substances in your products.

The only situation that I personally can see where a pre-sale before cure would be acceptable (in my opinion) is if a repeat customer asks to purchase a special batch and understands the reason for curing. Even then, I wouldn't "trust" that they are going to wait. What if they give it out as gifts and forget to tell that person about the "use date"? And I know the pH of my soap is higher at cut than it is after cure, and I rarely get a zap even right out of the mold. Will it kill them to use fresh soap? No. Will it cause a sensitivity or reaction? Maybe. Is fresh soap at its best? Nope. Do you want customers to "grade your soap" based on day 2 out of the mold? I don't. Sure, it's still just soap...but it will be GREAT soap in 6 weeks!

 

[Hausfrau007]

I'm sure Lindy misspoke when she said "legally". It's not illegal to sell soaps of any vintage in any country on this planet.

 

[2lilboots]

I have made soap recently that I want to give as gifts. I just told my friends that they wouldn't receive them til almost February. They are cool with that. I want to give the soap at least a 6 week cure time.

 

[Lindy]

Here in Canada we are governed by Health Canada and each recipe must be registered with them as well as your company. So when I say legally safe I mean that the soap is not lye heavy. Although Canada doesn't tend to jump into the suing route as much as the US does, if your soap is lye heavy and burns someone you would have a law suit on your hands. Since we know that saponification is complete within 48 hours for gelled soaps and a week for ungelled then selling them after that time, or after they stop zapping is safe. Is the soap as nice as it will be in 3 - 4 weeks? No. The older the soap gets the nicer is becomes. We know that Castille is best after a year but are we going to bash people for selling it before then? No, we're not. I don't feel there is anything wrong selling your soap with a Best After Date, or a Do Not Use Until Date. I think there was a time I wouldn't have shaking my fists at people who do that, but not anymore. Take a look at some of your favourite, or most inspiration soapers and you may find they do "Pre-Buys" which is simply selling the soap with a 2 or 3 week Best After Date.....

So again - legally safe, means that they are no longer zapping.... I know a lady here in town that does HP and sells it the same day.

 

[AlchemyandAshes]

Here in Canada we are governed by Health Canada and each recipe must be registered with them as well as your company. So when I say legally safe I mean that the soap is not lye heavy. Although Canada doesn't tend to jump into the suing route as much as the US does, if your soap is lye heavy and burns someone you would have a law suit on your hands.

So again - legally safe, means that they are no longer zapping....

Now I understand what you meant...here in the US (as you probably well know) we don't have to register recipes. Zapping or Lye Heavy would be no good no matter what the law or anyone else says :cry:

 

[Lindy]

Absolutely Shawnee! We're closer to to how the UK is regulated than the US, but it's okay as long as you know the rules...

 

[AlchemyandAshes]

Lindy - Do they charge a separate fee (or any fee?) for each recipe you submit for consideration? And do they just keep it on record in case there is ever a problem, or do they "critique it" safety-wise and tell you yay or nay? I'm intrigued :think:

 

[Maythorn]

That would be a turnoff to me. If I buy something fun and to pamper myself with, I want to use it as soon as I get home. There's too many other people making stuff good to go and I'd choose theirs unless there was something just outstanding about the unready. But I can't imagine what. You can buy fabulous handmade soaps that have been cured from a lot of soapmakers.