Sap value

[Sunibee]

I started using Canola oil in my soaps - I find the sap value to be so different. Why is that and which is reliable?
From nature with love has - .123
Soapkitchen.uk -.124
Soapformulas - .135
Certified_lye - .1328 ..
So, which one to follow and which is right. For bigger batches with 50% canola it makes a big difference .
This is just one example. There are many more . And some sites omit oils / Butters. For Sal butter I had to chk out 3 sites . That is when I noticed the difference in sap numbers . Please throw some light

 

[DeeAnna]

The saponification values for various recipe calculators do vary, but it's not that one is right and the others are in error. All so@p recipe calcs use averaged values and the data set used in one calc is not the same the data set as used by another calc. That's why you're seeing variation in the answers.

Fats are created by living animals or plants, not by a factory. Saponification values for any given fat will vary slightly depending on a lot of variables -- environmental conditions and nutrition of the plant or animal, the specific variety or breed, etc.

If you want to use a sap value that is accurate for your specific fat rather than an estimate, which is what you get from the calcs, you need to either measure the sap value yourself* or get that info from someone who has done that measurement for your specific fat -- in other words, contact the manufacturer or supplier and ask. I buy fats from Soaper's Choice here in the US and they list the sap values for their fats on their website. Other suppliers do not do this, so you have to inquire if you want to know.

No calc is more correct than the others -- they all provide estimated answers that approximate reality. If you keep comparing answers from the various calcs, all you are doing is confusing yourself and you aren't getting any closer to the real truth for your particular fats than if you stick with one calc and learn to use it well.

Rather than getting frustrated by comparing answers from the various calcs, I recommend you pick one calc and get used to how that calc performs for your soap making. If necessary, adjust your soap making methods accordingly.

If you want more accuracy for your particular fats, you will have to test YOUR fats (or find someone who has) and use that information rather than the averaged values used by the calcs.

***

"...For bigger batches with 50% canola it makes a big difference ..."

The absolute difference in grams is larger for a larger batch, yes I agree, but that isn't relevant to the chemistry. The percentage difference between the various sap values you listed is exactly the same whether you're making a large batch or a small one.

***

* See Kevin Dunn, Scientific Soapmaking, current edition, for a modified method to measure the saponification value of a fat

 

[Sunibee]

Thank you so much DeeAnna. For always replying so promptly . Thank you for the tips too

 

[TheGecko]

Agree with @DeeAnna. Whether I am making a one pound batch of soap from scratch, or am making a 10 lb batch from my Master Batch, the percentages don't change.

I use SoapCalc.net. It may not be the easiest soap calculator to use, it may not contain every oil/butter/fat out there and I can't save more than twelve recipes, but it's the one that I started with and the one I will continue with because I haven't had any problems with it. And should by chance decide to use a fat not listed, I can find out the SAP value and calculate it my Lye requirements (everyone should learn how to do it by hand).

 

[Marsi]

I started using Canola oil in my soaps - I find the sap value to be so different. Why is that and which is reliable?
From nature with love has - .123
Soapkitchen.uk -.124
Soapformulas - .135
Certified_lye - .1328 ..
So, which one to follow and which is right. For bigger batches with 50% canola it makes a big difference .
This is just one exaWhy is that ple. There are many more . And some sites omit oils / Butters. For Sal butter I had to chk out 3 sites . That is when I noticed the difference in sap numbers . Please throw some light

Why is that

Soap calculaters work on assumptions and estimates (no fat, even of the same type, has the same SAP value)
some saponification calculators add a superfat on top of the raw saponification value for safety reasons

which is reliable
as others have said, pick one and stick to it
you will work out what parameters they work with fairly quickly

eventually you might want to calculate your own numbers (as referrered to www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/sap-value.84637/post-901761)

 

[DeeAnna]

"...some saponification calculators add a superfat on top of the raw saponification value for safety reasons ..."

I know some people think this is true, but when I've looked into a couple of the calcs that supposedly do this, this is not what they're doing.

They might make a correction for lye purity, but the ones that do this (that I've looked at) make a correction only for KOH purity. Brambleberry, for example, states their KOH has a particular purity (can't remember what it is off the top of my head) and their calc includes a correction to account for their KOH purity.

Do you know of a calc whose developer says they did this? If so, can you provide a link? It's been awhile, so I might be a bit behind the times.

 

[Marsi]

could be an old urban myth (years ago it was written ...)
disregard the original sentence and use this if you like:
some saponification calculators have a lower saponification value for reasons

an example
Brambleberry has a NaOH saponification value of 0.144 for Palm Oil, Soapmaking friend uses 0.142, as does Soapcalc

 

[DeeAnna]

I suppose, but honestly a variation in the sap value from 0.142 to 0.144 sounds pretty normal. Ingredients that come from nature naturally have variations in their properties. A calc designer can choose the low number, high number, or the average within that range of sap values -- it's their choice. It would be inappropriate, however, for a designer to invent sap values that lie outside the normal range "for reasons" as you put it.

Bear in mind too that it's pretty easy to copy the data set in Soapcalc for use in another calc. I'm fairly certain that was done when they designed the So@pmaking Friend calc, and I'm certain that calc is not the only one that is based on the Soapcalc data set.

So just because you see 0.142 as the Palm sap value in several calcs doesn't mean that number is "more correct" than 0.144. That may only mean the calcs you looked at are using a plagiarized Soapcalc data set. To make a valid argument that one sap value is more valid than another for a particular fat, you need to go directly to the sources that measured the sap values. You can't just look at the numbers in the various calcs.

 

[ResolvableOwl]

Rapeseed is a heavily bred plant (both conventional and GMO). In fact, its oil has been regarded inedible for centuries due to the presence of erucic acid. Not until the last decades, new breeds (“canola”) have been developed, with erucic acid levels low enough for human consumption.

Manipulation of the fatty acid profile will in general alter its saponification value (that's the whole point why to use soap calculators). This is the case for blending oils, as well as breeding of rapeseed/canola too.

With kitchen-class retail RBD canola oil, I personally have had decent success with the SAP value tabulated as “canola oil” – though I'm pretty sure that it is not the original “canola®”, but another cultivar with obviously similar fatty acid profile (Europeans' resistance against GMO profiteering has paid off). That said, canola is a somewhat troublesome ingredient due to its DOS tendency, and I'd use it sparingly for soap anyway, and then minor SAP imprecisions don't matter too much.

YMMV if you have access to raw/inedible, cosmetic-grade, industrial (biodiesel etc.) or imported rapeseed oil. If your supplier provides SAP values (you might just ask!), it's the best source. Otherwise you are left with the options of guessing SAP, measuring it (titration), or replacing canola with an oil of more consistent properties, like HO sunflower/safflower (or, if you want to up PUFAs, a blend with HL sunflower/safflower, RBO or cottonseed oil).

From nature with love has - .123
Soapkitchen.uk -.124
Soapformulas - .135
Certified_lye - .1328 ..

According to the Soapee database, “Rapeseed oil, unrefined canola” is at NaSAP 0.125, and “Canola oil” (both regular and high-oleic) are at NaSAP 0.133. There you have your numbers!
Also compare the numbers of mustard oil, abyssinia oil, camelina oil, broccoli seed oil, and all the other brassicaceae, which are botanically very closely related to canola – just to get a rough idea how much fatty acid profiles can vary within that tribe of plants.

 

[melinda48]

Agree with @DeeAnna. Whether I am making a one pound batch of soap from scratch, or am making a 10 lb batch from my Master Batch, the percentages don't change.

I use SoapCalc.net. It may not be the easiest soap calculator to use, it may not contain every oil/butter/fat out there and I can't save more than twelve recipes, but it's the one that I started with and the one I will continue with because I haven't had any problems with it. And should by chance decide to use a fat not listed, I can find out the SAP value and calculate it my Lye requirements (everyone should learn how to do it by hand).

I save my SoapCalc recipes in my own files-not theirs. I like SoapCalc. Early on I referenced their instructions and find I do quite well with the app. soapmakers Friend is outstanding however!

 

[TheGecko]

I save my SoapCalc recipes in my own files-not theirs.

I have both paper and digital copies of all my recipes outside of SoapCalc. But I do have my GMS and Regular Soap recipes saved in SoapCalc whenever I make a 'new' soap so I can write notes on it and then put in my binder.

 

[Marsi]

I suppose, but honestly a variation in the sap value from 0.142 to 0.144 sounds pretty normal.

Correct. SAP values vary according to many reasons, which include (but are not limited to) seasonal variation, location, genetic variation, nutritional inputs, extraction methods and more.

for the OP, the easiest choice is as I (and others) stated earlier

which is reliable
pick one (saponification calculator) and stick to it

 

[Sunibee]

Rapeseed is a heavily bred plant (both conventional and GMO). In fact, its oil has been regarded inedible for centuries due to the presence of erucic acid. Not until the last decades, new breeds (“canola”) have been developed, with erucic acid levels low enough for human consumption.

Manipulation of the fatty acid profile will in general alter its saponification value (that's the whole point why to use soap calculators). This is the case for blending oils, as well as breeding of rapeseed/canola too.

With kitchen-class retail RBD canola oil, I personally have had decent success with the SAP value tabulated as “canola oil” – though I'm pretty sure that it is not the original “canola®”, but another cultivar with obviously similar fatty acid profile (Europeans' resistance against GMO profiteering has paid off). That said, canola is a somewhat troublesome ingredient due to its DOS tendency, and I'd use it sparingly for soap anyway, and then minor SAP imprecisions don't matter too much.

YMMV if you have access to raw/inedible, cosmetic-grade, industrial (biodiesel etc.) or imported rapeseed oil. If your supplier provides SAP values (you might just ask!), it's the best source. Otherwise you are left with the options of guessing SAP, measuring it (titration), or replacing canola with an oil of more consistent properties, like HO sunflower/safflower (or, if you want to up PUFAs, a blend with HL sunflower/safflower, RBO or cottonseed oil).

According to the Soapee database, “Rapeseed oil, unrefined canola” is at NaSAP 0.125, and “Canola oil” (both regular and high-oleic) are at NaSAP 0.133. There you have your numbers!
Also compare the numbers of mustard oil, abyssinia oil, camelina oil, broccoli seed oil, and all the other brassicaceae, which are botanically very closely related to canola – just to get a rough idea how much fatty acid profiles can vary within that tribe of plants.

Thank you so much ResolvableOwl very indept. .. I have a bit of canola. Which I want to finish. I love my coconut , castor sesame oil and mustard oil both native to India . My pine tar soap I use.mustard infused with so many herbs and leaves of 0lant which are great for.the skin...and my pine tar soaps turna out v well ..it's loved by all