Salt and Hardness

Discussion in 'Lye-Based Soap Forum' started by Dean, Mar 20, 2019.

Help Support Soapmaking Forum by donating:

  1. Mar 23, 2019 #21

    Dawni

    Dawni

    Dawni

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2018
    Messages:
    1,532
    Likes Received:
    1,840
    Location:
    Philippines
    Not SaltedFig but soleseifes generally still lather quite well. My first one had nice, dense lather even at only 4mos cure so I imagine it'll be awesome at 12.

    Most recipes will work but some up the coconut slightly to help with bubbles. And/or some form of milk. I think I even remember using a bit of sugar..

    A tweak of this recipe was my first but I've since experimented with salt amounts, additives, etc. Some inspired partly from the experiments from this german site.

    Oh btw, I came across this experiment and was surprised how long a soleseife bar can last.
     
    KiwiSoap likes this.
  2. Mar 23, 2019 #22

    KiwiMoose

    KiwiMoose

    KiwiMoose

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2018
    Messages:
    1,140
    Likes Received:
    1,739
    Location:
    Hamilton, New Zealand
    Thanks for that recipe Dawni.
    So does a soleseife bar not need any stearic/myristic fatty acid at all? Or was that just the choice of that particular soaper?
     
  3. Mar 23, 2019 #23

    Dawni

    Dawni

    Dawni

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2018
    Messages:
    1,532
    Likes Received:
    1,840
    Location:
    Philippines
    Probably choice?

    I've seen recipes with some amount of shea at 10-15% but haven't seen much more. Not sure if they thought it might cut lather (combined with tje salt), or just that they didn't need extra hardeners because soleseifes end up hard anyway?
     
  4. Mar 23, 2019 #24

    Atihcnoc

    Atihcnoc

    Atihcnoc

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2013
    Messages:
    92
    Likes Received:
    34
    Location:
    Texas
    I just put vinegar by my side as a helper in case of an accident with lye happens. I never thought it could be used in soap making.

    How much vinegar do you use? and what is your SF?

    Thank you
     
  5. Mar 23, 2019 #25

    SaltedFig

    SaltedFig

    SaltedFig

    Lifetime Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2017
    Messages:
    2,201
    Likes Received:
    2,096
    Location:
    Australia
    Not dawni ;) but the soft oil soleseife's I've made have been quite hard and brittle (although I do use olive, so those soaps get very hard anyway).

    I couldn't see the recipe that didn't have coconut, but I've also made some with just butters and olive (and honey and dual lye) that have a beautiful creamy lather (and are very hard and smooth). The butters do impact on the amount of lather - I think the effect seems to be slightly more in soleseife (over a non-solesiefe soap), but I haven't tested this observation to be sure.

    @Atihcnoc - Slight safety OT:
    The best first aid treatment for lye spilled on skin is to rinse/wash/flush it with copious amounts of water - keep going until your skin stops feeling slippery.
    (Vinegar is dangerous in an emergency: the reaction between the lye and the vinegar is exothermic and can get hot enough to cause burns)

    I keep a sink or bucket full of water, for use in an emergency.(I want to be able to get to water quickly if any spill or splash gets anywhere near my eyes) :)

    I think it was Susie that suggested clay-based kitty litter as an absorbent for larger spills - so a bucket of water and a bucket of kitty litter ... there's a look!
    (But safe :))
     
    KiwiSoap, Dawni and KiwiMoose like this.
  6. Mar 23, 2019 #26

    KiwiMoose

    KiwiMoose

    KiwiMoose

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2018
    Messages:
    1,140
    Likes Received:
    1,739
    Location:
    Hamilton, New Zealand
    So here's a thought I had this morning in the shower - I seem to do a lot of thinking in the shower. If I were to use coconut MILK in a brine soap could I then stick with my usual 5% SF ( normally with the higher coconut one would use more SF)?

    Just thinking of a recipe off the top of my head here:
    40% Coconut Oil
    20% Olive Oil
    15% Rice Bran Oil
    15% Soy wax
    5% Avocado
    5% Castor

    5% SF

    150g Coconut Milk (15% of Oil weight) added to oils before mixing counted as half the water content ( ie mix the lye with water at a high concentration, knowing that there is water in the coconut milk). SO would this additional fat in the coconut milk that is not counted above, effectively increase the amount SF?

    Sorry if this is hijacking @Dean - tell me to move on if you think I should start another thread.

    ALSO - one further question. How does the brine affect the longevity of the soap? I think I would still prefer to keep my SW in there for bar longevity you see. If the salt only affects the hardness but not the longevity, then I would want something to up my palmitic/stearic.
     
  7. Mar 24, 2019 #27

    Atihcnoc

    Atihcnoc

    Atihcnoc

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2013
    Messages:
    92
    Likes Received:
    34
    Location:
    Texas
    Thank you SaltedFig,
    I have been very lucky or I have been very cautious because in my 10 years of making soap I have never had an accident with lye, in my study I have a big sink so when I make soap I organize and leave everything at hand in case of an accident. Fortunately, I have never had one. I like to use a little vinegar in the water where I rinse my soap tools, that way I am sure not only to remove the soap but any trace of oil and lye. I use glasses and in top of my glasses I use protection as well, also a special long apron and gloves. My husband is a Petroleum Engineer and is very special when it comes to being careful.

    Thank you for being so kind and letting me know about the first aid treatment and the dangers of vinegar when it is not used correctly.
    I really appreciate that :)
     
    Nanette and SaltedFig like this.
  8. Mar 24, 2019 #28

    SaltedFig

    SaltedFig

    SaltedFig

    Lifetime Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2017
    Messages:
    2,201
    Likes Received:
    2,096
    Location:
    Australia
    The coconut milk will increase your superfat, yes.
    Your coconut is higher than mine, but the milk makes it milder - I would use a soap made to that recipe :)).

    (Trivia: the brine soaps end up being the pastel cousins of the soapy world; colours that look good in soft tones work really well with them :)).

    On longevity - they last pretty well (except at the end - I end up breaking mine - they don't bend).

    Vinegar in the rinse water - that's a good idea, thanks! :)

    (and you're welcome - I couldn't leave it without comment, just in case, but it sounds like you are well covered :D)
     
  9. Mar 24, 2019 #29

    Dawni

    Dawni

    Dawni

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2018
    Messages:
    1,532
    Likes Received:
    1,840
    Location:
    Philippines
    I read here how to account for the fat in milks from the labels lemme go find it. I don't have the knowledge to answer the question of it being enough though, sorry.

    For the second question, I will point you to the last link in post #21 above, where the lady put her soleseife through sun and rains for 7mos and still had bits til the last.

    @SaltedFig I just had a thought when I saw the word wax. Would you know how it affects soleseifes and salt bars? Soy wax or beeswax, for example. Also, thanks, as always for your answers, and in this case, for letting me butt in lol

    @Atihcnoc my usage of vinegar was a first, and also very unscientific lol. I figured a higher SF for soleseife was no problem so I just switched out maybe about 5% of my brine for vinegar and went with it. There's loads of more precise info around the forum using just the search word vinegar that would help you much more than I could :)
     
    SaltedFig likes this.
  10. Mar 24, 2019 #30

    KiwiMoose

    KiwiMoose

    KiwiMoose

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2018
    Messages:
    1,140
    Likes Received:
    1,739
    Location:
    Hamilton, New Zealand
    @SaltedFig - thank you. I wanted higher coconut so that it still laters with the introduction of brine. Do you think it's too high?

    @Dawni - I watched that video, but didn't even think of it when i asked the question - duh!

    Might have a go at this tomorrow - exciting stuff! Then i can report back @Dean as to my findings.
     
    SaltedFig and Dean like this.
  11. Mar 24, 2019 #31

    SaltedFig

    SaltedFig

    SaltedFig

    Lifetime Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2017
    Messages:
    2,201
    Likes Received:
    2,096
    Location:
    Australia
    @KiwiMoose Not at all! :)
    I went back to some of my early experiments, and brought out an aged coconut soleseife ... I would not call it harsh, in the ordinary sense that it does not leave my skin feeling prickly, but it is very cleansing (my skin doesn't squeak, so it's not totally stripped, but it's close to it) - it is very bubbly, with quite a few of the big bubbles associated with coconut soaps, although less than a soap without the brine - a peculiar thing, the same 100% coconut in a salt bar gives creamy bubbles (and leaves my skin squeaky).

    So while the lather is still affected by the salt, brine soaps lather more like ordinary soaps than salt bars do, in my experience.

    @Dawni
    The carbon chain length of soybean oil is 18, with varying numbers of double-bonds that twist the original fatty acid into a bent shape.
    Soy wax is a hydrogenated version of soybean oil, so the kink in the tail of the fatty acids in the soybean oil have been straightened out by modifying the chemical bonds in the carbon chain, rather than it being a true wax to begin with (sorry about this - the point will become clear in the next sentence :)).
    After hydrogenation, the soybean wax will be more like a triglyceride with stearic acid (which is the name for an 18-chain straight, or saturated, fatty acid) as the main fatty acid, which is why you will see high numbers of "stearic acid" in the fatty acid profile of soybean "wax".

    I wrote a little bit on the carbon chain length of fatty acids here: https://www.soapmakingforum.com/thr...e-trace-and-at-what-levels.74393/#post-758883

    So, it will act a lot like a butter, only exaggerated, as there is no oleic acids to balance out the straight chain fatty acids (shea butter and cocoa butter both have oleic as part of their makeup) - it will make the soap hard, slightly waxy, less soluable and with a creamy lather.
    It will cut lather, but the effect will not be nearly as dramatic as a true wax (the soap is less soluable, but soy wax soap is still soap, whereas a true wax is mostly unsaponfiable).
    I've put true waxes into soleseife and salt bars, and the lather cutting effect is easily noticed at even a single percent.

    In my opinion, in a blend (especially with a quick ingredient like coconut), soy wax go quite nicely in a soleseife soap. By itself, it would be awful :D
     
    KiwiSoap, Dawni and KiwiMoose like this.
  12. Mar 24, 2019 #32

    KiwiMoose

    KiwiMoose

    KiwiMoose

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2018
    Messages:
    1,140
    Likes Received:
    1,739
    Location:
    Hamilton, New Zealand
    I'm all good on that front thanks @Dawni - I just really wanted to know if my usual 5% superfat would suffice with the higher concentration of CO, given that the additional fat in the milk will probably push it up to nearer 6 or 7.
     
  13. Mar 24, 2019 #33

    Dawni

    Dawni

    Dawni

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2018
    Messages:
    1,532
    Likes Received:
    1,840
    Location:
    Philippines
    Thank you @SaltedFig! I had a feeling the soy wax vs true wax answer would be what you said but would not have been able to answer the why part. I always like reading and rereading your answers :)

    Oki hehe

    So is 40% coconut with only 6 or 7 SF fine for you? I'd up mine to 10 if it was me..
     
    SaltedFig likes this.
  14. Mar 24, 2019 #34

    Atihcnoc

    Atihcnoc

    Atihcnoc

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2013
    Messages:
    92
    Likes Received:
    34
    Location:
    Texas
    Thank you Dawni!!

    I'm glad you did it, as I'm sure this will be a good info for more than one... Thank you.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 1, 2019
    SaltedFig and Dawni like this.
  15. Mar 31, 2019 #35

    DeeAnna

    DeeAnna

    DeeAnna

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2013
    Messages:
    10,659
    Likes Received:
    14,061
    Location:
    Northeast Iowa, USA
    It takes about 1 ounce of 5% vinegar (about 30 grams) to neutralize just 1 gram of dry NaOH. If a person wants a decent chance of neutralizing more than tiny traces of NaOH or KOH on equipment or work surfaces, use vinegar full strength, not diluted.

    Or use citric acid which is MUCH more efficient at acid-base neutralization than vinegar.

    But to reinforce SaltdFig's first aid advice, the correct first aid for NaOH or KOH on the body is always flushing with plenty of PLAIN WATER. Your goal must be to dilute and remove it fast.
     
  16. Apr 1, 2019 #36

    penelopejane

    penelopejane

    penelopejane

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2015
    Messages:
    4,624
    Likes Received:
    3,232
    Location:
    Sth Coast, NSW, Australia
    To make a difference to hardness you need to replace at least half of your water with vinegar. 100% vinegar is harder still but it makes the bar feel different. Hard, yes, but also plastic-y.
    If you are going to use vinegar do read what DeeAnna said about neutralising the vinegar to ensure it doesn't effect your recipe in an uncontrolled (negative) way.
     
    Dawni likes this.
  17. Apr 1, 2019 #37

    Dawni

    Dawni

    Dawni

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2018
    Messages:
    1,532
    Likes Received:
    1,840
    Location:
    Philippines
    I admit I was looking more towards lessening ash and seeing if vinegar helped. Maybe it did? No ash whatsoever..

    I did make a 75% vinegar soap after, using DeeAnna's advice, and another thread to calculate or estimate superfat. Let me link it for the others: https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/how-to-use-vinegar-to-harden-your-soap.59295/
     
    penelopejane likes this.

Share This Page