Birdie Wife
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That's good to know - I will definitely check before I use either rosin or pine tar in any soaps. It's one for further down the road once I have more experience I think 
Rosin soap
- Thread starter Pears
- Start date
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I just checked in with my EU friends and they say it is not allowed, but that doesn't stop people from using it.... :shh:
Now, this thread exemplifies why I love this forum! Even when I think (only for a very, very brief second, mind you ;-) that I've heard, read, seen, smelled, and maybe even tasted (zap, zap ;-) it all, I click on a thread and *BAMB*, there it is…some new and fascinating tid-bit of info I would have never encountered otherwise. Thanks Lindy and Pears for a great discussion
Is that with regard to pine tar or rosin/rosinate? Can you ask them when these regulations came in because the INCI directory for cosmetic ingredients shows that neither pine tar or sodium rosinate were restricted within the EU, up until atleast 2009. The data sheets tend to be updated or replaced when new restrictions come in and that doesn't seem to have happened. Thanks.
http://www.specialchem4cosmetics.com/services/inci/ingredient.aspx?id=10158&q=pine%20tar
http://www.specialchem4cosmetics.com/services/inci/ingredient.aspx?id=10157&q=pine tar
http://www.specialchem4cosmetics.com/services/inci/ingredient.aspx?id=6641&q=pine tar
http://www.specialchem4cosmetics.com/services/inci/ingredient.aspx?id=12952&q=sodium rosinate
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It's my pleasure, Kersten. We might pretend that we're all grown up but really we're still kids at heart and want to experiment and discover new things. Fortunately, there's no end of new things that we can discover.
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I'll take it that your friends in europe aren't sure, Lindy. Anyhow, I'm going to try making some but I'm not sure whether or not I should add more water, if I'm doing a small test batch. I only want to use 100g of rosin to begin with. According to the recipe, that would require 100ml of lye (containing 27.6g of sodium hydroxide) but I think that the water would evaporate off quicker in such a small batch and require topping up.
Actually they are and I checked with a safety assessor too. It is considered carcinogenic and has not been proved to be safe so for that reason safety assessors are not approving it even though it is not yet a banned ingredient. With the new legislature coming into play this year there will be even more crack downs.
But it is what it is and it doesn't affect me since I'm not there....
But it is what it is and it doesn't affect me since I'm not there....
The new legislation is all encompassing with regards to the cosmetic industry there. At this point it is not known what in all is going to be in this, but all SA's are having to be re-written for the new regs.
That's interesting to know, Lindy. Fortunately it won't affect you or me. I'm not sure about pine tar but I'm confident that rosin soap is safe, so I'll have a bash at making some. Pears soap was created in 1789 and it's the oldest brand in the world that still continues to this day. If rosin soap was good enough to clean and bathe a nation for the last two centuries, then I think that it's good enough for us too.
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judymoody
Well-Known Member
If you are interested in making soap like the original Pears soap, I suggest that you look at Susan Miller Cavitch's books. One of them (Soapmaker's Companion?) explains how to do it and it involves a more complicated method than regular CP soap to obtain that translucent quality. I believe it requires the use of alcohol. It's been awhile since I read the book but it provides much more modern and detailed instructions than what you currently have.
I think that the rosin you are describing is very different from the pine tar I know. I have made pine tar soap (20% pine tar) for a friend with psoriasis and it looks nothing like Pears soap. It looks, frankly, like a lump of tar and the consistency is slightly sticky. It traces lightning fast.
If you get the kind of rosin that is used for violin strings and ballet shoes, I believe that you can render it usable in soap by putting some in fractionated coconut oil and gently heating it.
I look forward to hearing how this experiment unfolds. My husband is also a big fan of the original Pears soap.
I think that the rosin you are describing is very different from the pine tar I know. I have made pine tar soap (20% pine tar) for a friend with psoriasis and it looks nothing like Pears soap. It looks, frankly, like a lump of tar and the consistency is slightly sticky. It traces lightning fast.
If you get the kind of rosin that is used for violin strings and ballet shoes, I believe that you can render it usable in soap by putting some in fractionated coconut oil and gently heating it.
I look forward to hearing how this experiment unfolds. My husband is also a big fan of the original Pears soap.
Hi Judy, thanks for the heads up. I was indeed talking about using the rosin that's sometimes used for string instruments, rather than pine tar. Would it be possible for you to write the recipe here, or does that break the forum rules? I know that there is a similar rosin soap recipe to the one that you described, in Catherine Failor's book on Transparent Soapmaking. One soaper had this to say...
Pears
I had thought of melting the rosin in just a small amount of oil, as you said, saponifying it and then adding it to melt and pour soap. It would be simpler than making a transparant soap from scratch. The oil might be opaque but it would hopefully be in small enough amounts to allow the melt and pour soap to remain translucent. Pears soap was never completely transparant anyhow. I'd have to figure out the minimum amount of oil that is necessary to dissolve the rosin and how much extra lye to use. It's good talking with you.
Pears
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judymoody
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately, I don't own this book and it is perpetually checked out at my local library. You might try Amazon to see if you can find a used copy. I believe that the method is similar to what Failor describes. I've never actually tried this method myself.
I'll have a look to see if my local library has either of them. I've managed to find the approximate SAP value for rosin on a few sites. The range seems to be around 170-180 for the lightest grades and 160-170 for the darker grades. When you take into account the conversion from potassium hydroxide to sodium hydroxide, the SAP value would then be 121-129 for the lighter grades and 114-121 for the darker grades.
http://hpsirmaur.nic.in/Rosin1.htm
The recipe that I linked to earlier equated to 276g of sodium hydroxide per kg of rosin. However, if we were to go by the SAP values for rosin, we should only need 114-129g of sodium hydroxide per kg of rosin, depending on the grade. It may be that the earlier recipe was using potassium hydroxide, in which case the amounts called for would have been much closer to the SAP values for rosin.
If I were to dissolve 100g of dark grade rosin in say 50g of coconut oil, based on the SAP values for each, I should need about 21g of sodium hydroxide. As it's a good idea to superfat a recipe by atleast 5%, 20g of sodium hydroxide should be about right. Hopefully it can then be added to some melt and pour soap. Thanks for everyone's feedback so far.
http://hpsirmaur.nic.in/Rosin1.htm
The recipe that I linked to earlier equated to 276g of sodium hydroxide per kg of rosin. However, if we were to go by the SAP values for rosin, we should only need 114-129g of sodium hydroxide per kg of rosin, depending on the grade. It may be that the earlier recipe was using potassium hydroxide, in which case the amounts called for would have been much closer to the SAP values for rosin.
If I were to dissolve 100g of dark grade rosin in say 50g of coconut oil, based on the SAP values for each, I should need about 21g of sodium hydroxide. As it's a good idea to superfat a recipe by atleast 5%, 20g of sodium hydroxide should be about right. Hopefully it can then be added to some melt and pour soap. Thanks for everyone's feedback so far.
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Pears why are you wanting to place it into melt & pour after making it as CP already?
Hi Lindy, I'm interested in creating a transparant soap like Pears but I'd prefer to test it with some melt and pour soap, before attempting to make a transparant soap from scratch. I'm unfamiliar with making transparant soap, so I figured that I'd skip that until I know what I'm doing with the rosin. I haven't yet made up my mind as to what I'm going to do though. I'd like to read the recipe in one of those books first, if I can.
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Transparent really isn't that hard to do. It's hot process that has had sugar and alcohol added to it. You are going to need to soap at lower superfat but I would recommend that you play with that, perfect it so you can create your masterpiece?
Thanks, I'll certainly look into it further before I decide what to do. I would like to eventually make my own from scratch but I'm also interested in making a melt and pour version. I've been active on a Pears soap blog recently and some posters were interested in the idea of making their own, so I said that I'd look into it and share my findings. While I'd be interested in making my own from scratch, I think that it would be alot simpler for them if I gave them a melt and pour version to begin with.
I should correct that. Andrew Pears did set up his business in 1789 but created his Pears soap in 1807.
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This is a quick update for those who are interested. I melted 1.5 grams of rosin in 0.75 grams of coconut oil today and it dissolved quite easily. The consistency once cooled was soft and workable and the addition of a little hot water made it about as runny as honey. So half as much coconut oil as rosin should be enough to help the lye mix in with the rosin and do it's job. The interesting thing is that the rosin and oil mixture remained transparent once cooled, even though the pure coconut oil was white at the same temperature. I'm guessing that the rosin stopped the coconut oil from recrystalizing. Hopefully a similar effect will be seen upon saponification. I have to pick up some sodium hydroxide before I can test that out. I'll keep you all updated.
Pears
Pears
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